[From Investigation of Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce: Hearings before the Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, U.S. Senate, 81st Cong., 2nd Sess. and 82nd Congress, 1st Sess., Part 10, US Government Printing Office, Washington DC: 1950., pp. 928-935.]

__________

928      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

* * * * *

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tucker, will you come forward and be sworn?

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        929

            Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

            Mr. TUCKER. I do.

TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL TUCKER, THE DESERT INN, LAS VEGAS, NEV., ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES CARR, ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

            The CHAIRMAN. You are Mr. Samuel Tucker; is that correct?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let the record show that Mr. Carr is representing Mr. Tucker, also.

            Where do you live, Mr. Tucker?

            Mr. TUCKER. The Desert Inn in Las Vegas.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is that your permanent address?

            Mr. TUCKER. Well, I gave you that address because that is where voted.

            The CHAIRMAN. So you moved your legal voting place out to Las Vegas?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is that correct?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes. What do you mean by "legal voting place?"

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, your legal residence is now in Las Vegas, is it?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. How long has it been at Las Vegas?

            Mr. TUCKER. Since April 24, a year ago.

            Mr. CHAIRMAN. Where did you live before you came to Las Vegas?

            Mr. TUCKER. Miami, Fla.; Surfside, Fla.

            The CHAIRMAN. You mean the Surfside Inn?

            Mr. TUCKER. I didn't hear you.

            The CHAIRMAN. At what place?

            Mr. TUCKER. Surfside, Fla.; that is the name of the city.

            The CHAIRMAN. I thought you said Miami, Fla.

            Mr. TUCKER. It is all called Miami, Fla., I believe.

            The CHAIRMAN. Where did you live in Surfside, Fla.?

            Mr. TUCKER. 1437 Biscaya Drive.

            The CHAIRMAN. How long did you live in Florida before you came out here?

            Mr. TUCKER. Several years; 2 years, I think.

            The CHAIRMAN. Two years?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Prior to those 2 years where did you live?  

            Mr. TUCKER. In Kentucky.

            The CHAIRMAN. At Newport or at Covington, Ky.?

            Mr. TUCKER. Newport, Ky.

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tucker, where have you been the last 3 months?

            Mr. TUCKER. Right at home.

            The CHAIRMAN. In Kentucky ?

            Mr. TUCKER. In Surfside.

            The CHAIRMAN. They were trying to serve you both in Newport, Ky., and Cleveland, Ohio, and Miami, Fla.; where were you then?

930      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. TUCKER. Senator, I left Newport, Ky., about 2 years ago and moved to Florida. I went down there for my health.

            The CHAIRMAN. You knew you were wanted by this committee?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Why didn't you let us know about your whereabouts?

            Mr. TUCKER. I was home every day; I never went anywhere. Nobody served me with a subpena.

            The CHAIRMAN. You do not feel that there is some obligation to make yourself available in the event it is known that you are wanted!

            Mr. TUCKER. The only time I knew I should be available is when they mentioned something about a warrant.

            The CHAIRMAN. When we had passed a resolution for a warrant then you got in touch with Mr. Carr and made yourself available; is that correct?

            Mr. TUCKER. That is correct ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Are you an officer in the Desert Inn at the present time?

            Mr. TUCKER. A director.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who made the contact with Mr. Wilbur Clark relative to buying an interest in the Desert Inn?

            Mr. TUCKER. Well, I don't know how that came about. You asked me who made the contact?

            The CHAIRMAN. How did you people get together with Mr. Clark!

            Mr. TUCKER. Mr. Clark was shopping around, like Mr. Dalitz told you. He had been trying to get someone to finish his buildings over there. Back in October or November of 1948 I was called to come down to Las Vegas.

            The CHAIRMAN. Speak up ; we are having a very difficult time hearing you.

            Mr. TUCKER. I was called to Las Vegas in October or November of 1948, to come down and see the place or look over the deal.

            The CHAIRMAN. Were you the first one that came out here to look over the deal ?

            Mr. TUCKER. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

            Mr. TUCKER. I met Mr. Dalitz and Mr. Kleinman there and Mr. Clark, of course. That is the first time I had ever met Mr. Clark.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you all come out here to look over the deal together?

            Mr. TUCKER. No, I didn't; I came out later.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then did you decide to go into this?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. How much money did you put into it?

            Mr. TUCKER. I sold my stock at the Pioneer Linen Co. and that was being paid out in notes. The balance of the notes I took to the Union Trust Co. and loaned $75,000 on it. In addition to the $75,000 I had another $45,000 more. I had $120,000 in it.

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dalitz got you into the Detroit Steel Corp., didn't he?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes ; he told me about the Detroit Steel. I had $16,000 in the Detroit Steel.

            The CHAIRMAN. He also had you in the laundries with him, a large laundry in Detroit, did he not?

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        931

            Mr. TUCKER. When Mr. Dalitz went to the Army and managed the laundries for the Army, he felt that I should have an interest with him in the Michigan Industrial Laundry since I was in there at the Pioneer Linen.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, you got into the Michigan Industrial with him?

            Mr. TUCKER. For a very short time.

            Mr. CARR. May I interrupt you for a second, Senator ?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. CARR. I think we could save much time if I could just ask him to make a general statement. It might cut through and save you a lot of time, if we may do that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, anything to save time, we would appreciate it.

            Mr. CARR. He has been a partner with Mr. Dalitz in most of the things in which Mr. Dalitz has been interested in the last 27 years. I though that might cut through and give you something there.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is that correct?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes. I have been friendly and been with Mr. Dalitz for the past 26 or 27 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. You and Mr. Dalitz, you have been in these clubs with him and in his businesses; is that right? The Detroit Steel Co., the laundries, and the, Desert Inn?

            Mr. TUCKER. Not all the laundries, no.

            The CHAIRMAN. The Pioneer Laundry ; is that right?

            Mr. TUCKER. The Pioneer Laundry, yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, the same is pretty much true of Mr. Rothkopf and Kleinman and in most enterprises, also Mr. McGinty ; is that true?

            Mr. TUCKER. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then the four of you, Dalitz, Tucker, Kleinman, and Rothkopf have been together in most of these enterprises for many years?

            Mr. TUCKER. I have known Mr. Kleinman for about 30 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have known him a little longer than Mr. Dalitz?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. What I mean is the four of you, and to some extent Mr. McGinty, have been jointly interested or joint investors in these various operations over a period of 25 or 30 years?

            Mr. TUCKER. I wouldn't say it was 25 or 30 years with Mr. McGinty, but I would say 25 or 26 years with Mr. Kleinman and Mr. Dalitz.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about Mr. Rothkopf ?

            Mr. TUCKER. It might have been 15 or 17 or 20 years with him.

            The CHAIRMAN. And Mr. McGinty more recently; is that correct?

            Mr. TUCKER. I would say in the past 10 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. For the past 10 years the five of you have been in all of these things together?

            Mr. TUCKER. Not all the things, no.

            The CHAIRMAN. But in most of them ?

            Mr. TUCKER. In some of them.

            The CHAIRMAN. For instance, the Beverly Hills Country Club in Kentucky; that is one of them, isn't it?

932      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. TUCKER. I will have to take exception to that and stand on my constitutional rights.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago. I will ask you the question if you had an interest, the same interest, if you had an interest in the Beverly Hills Country Club in Kentucky more than 6 years ago ?

            Mr. TUCKER. I have been out of there for a couple of years.

            The CHAIRMAN. You say you have been out for 2 years?

            Mr. TUCKER. I have been away from there for 2 years. I haven't been living in Kentucky for 2 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. My question is, if more than 6 years ago you had an interest, along with Mr. Dalitz and the others, in the Beverly Hills Country Club, the Lookout Club and the Yorkshire Club.

            Mr. TUCKER. I will have to refuse to answer the question, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. I will have to direct you to answer the question, Mr. Tucker.

            Mr. TUCKER. It may tend to incriminate me.

            The CHAIRMAN. Of what offense would it tend to incriminate you if it was more than 6 years ago?

            Mr. TUCKER. Different various agencies of the Government have different laws.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any particular offense in mind?

            Mr. CARR. May I consult with him?

            The CHAIRMAN. All right, sir.

            Do you want to answer the question now?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. What is your answer?

            Mr. TUCKER. Before 6 years ago I was in that club, yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let's do it this way : The five of you called yourself, and you were known as a syndicate; isn't that correct? Wasn't that group of yours, together, a syndicate?

            Mr. TUCKER. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, let's call it a group or a syndicate.

            Mr. TUCKER. They aren't a syndicate. There are some things that I am in on and some that I am not in on.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Union Enterprise in Chesapeake, Ohio? What was that, Mr. Tucker?

            Mr. TUCKER. A land company or something, I think. That was before 6 years ago, wasn't it?

            The CHAIRMAN. Was it a legitimate enterprise or not, a legal enterprise, do you know?

            Mr. TUCKER. No, I don't know.

            The CHAIRMAN. You were in it and you got some revenue from it. Do you know what it was ?

            Mr. TUCKER. You mean before 6 years ago ?

            The CHAIRMAN. I asked you whether you ever received any revenue from the Union Enterprise? In the first place, was it a legal enterprise ?

            Mr. CARR. I don't mean to interrupt, but I wonder if he understands what you mean by a legal enterprise.

            The CHAIRMAN. Was it doing anything that violated the law, either in violation of the State law or the United States laws?

            Mr. TUCKER. I would like to take exception to that because it would tend to incriminate me if I answered that.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        933

            The CHAIRMAN. I am just trying to get a basis for this. Let me see if you have any basis for refusing to answer the question. Do you think any answer about whether you received revenues from the Union Enterprise of Chesapeake, Ohio, might tend to incriminate you?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Were you in it more than 6 years ago?

            Mr. TUCKER. I don't think so.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the D. J. Krause Realty Co. in Cincinnati?

            Mr. TUCKER. I had a 50 percent interest in that.

            The CHAIRMAN. What kind of a business was that?

            Mr. TUCKER. Real estate that I had on a building, where we each invested $5,000.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Oak Grove Restaurant in Dayton, Ohio? Haven't you had an interest in that?

            Mr. TUCKER. More than 6 years ago?

            The CHAIRMAN. Recently.

            Mr. TUCKER. I will have to take exception to that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that answering whether you have had an interest in the Oak Grove Restaurant or do have at the present time might tend to incriminate you?

            Mr. TUCKER. I believe it would. The income tax report, if it shows I have on interest, then the other agencies may look into that matter and it may tend to incriminate me.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever hear of the Oak Grove Restaurant?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes. I don't know whether they called it the Oak Grove Restaurant or not.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is it just an ordinary restaurant like any other restaurant?

            Mr. TUCKER. It has food.

            The CHAIRMAN. Food among other things; is that the situation?

            Mr. TUCKER. It had food among other things ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about your theater enterprises? How many theaters do you own? Do you own them along with this other group? Is that part of this enterprise?

            Mr. TUCKER. I don't own them. I negotiated some loans to buy some leases for my son and a man by the name of Morris with Columbia Pictures and my wife.

            The CHAIRMAN. How do you get any income from the theaters?

            Mr. TUCKER. I don't get any. I get the interest on the loans that I have made.

            The CHAIRMAN. How many theaters have you loaned money to?

            Mr. TUCKER. I have three leases. I wouldn't be too familiar with that. I didn't form the corporation.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have leased the theaters, haven't you?

            Mr. TUCKER. I never owned them. They were leased by Morris. I negotiated some loans for the theaters.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Mortoc Theaters?

            Mr. TUCKER. That is probably the same situation again.

            The CHAIRMAN. What is the A. E. Gordon, trustee, River Downs matter?

            Mr. TUCKER. That is a real-estate deal in Cincinnati where there was a sale made and it shows on my return.

934      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. Is this Attorney Haas in Cleveland your attorney ?

            Mr. TUCKER. Who?

            The CHAIRMAN. H-a-a-s.

            Mr. TUCKER. I know Mr. Haas; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Has he done any legal work for you ?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes ; I would say that I called on him for a little legal work; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you remember anything about this Federal grand jury matter in Buffalo?

            Mr. TUCKER. I really don't.

            The CHAIRMAN. You do not remember being indicted along with Kleinman and Moe Davis back in 1930 or the early 1930's?

            Mr. TUCKER. I really don't.

            The CHAIRMAN. You never heard about it 1

            Mr. TUCKER. I remember hearing about it but I don't know why they would have indicted me. If they had me indicted they should have picked me up and charged me, or something like that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you and Kleinman and Dalitz, did you have a barge or a group of boats on the Lakes up there?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes; that was in 1929 or 1930.

            The CHAIRMAN. That is how the four or five of you got together in the beginning; isn't that right?

            Mr. TUCKER. No; I don't think so. I knew Mr. Kleinman then.

            The CHAIRMAN. You also knew Mr. Dalitz then, too, did you not?

            Mr. TUCKER. Not until later. I don't, think I knew Mr. Dalitz until later. I knew Kleinman prior to the time I knew Dalitz.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about Lou Rothkopf? Did you know him?

            Mr. TUCKER. Rothkopf I have known about 20 some years.

            The CHAIRMAN. You all got your start before the days of the repeal and in the prohibition days, by rum-running on the lakes, to some extent ?

            Mr. TUCKER. I don't know if any of us kept any of that money.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, you had some money to invest when the time came along from that?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever been convicted of anything?

            Mr. TUCKER. Not that I know of.

            The CHAIRMAN. Would you know if you had been ?

            Mr. TUCKER. I should know but I haven't been convicted of anything that I know of.

            The CHAIRMAN. That you remember of?

            Mr. TUCKER. I don't believe I have. You mentioned this indictment in Buffalo.

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. TUCKER. I don't know anything about that ; I don't remember being tried or convicted.

            The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there an arrest or an indictment also in Cleveland sometime back?

            Mr. TUCKER. On what, Senator?

            The CHAIRMAN. On a liquor violation.

            Mr. TUCKER. Not that I can remember.

            The CHAIRMAN. You do not remember that ?

            Mr. TUCKER. No.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE.       935

            The CHAIRMAN. I do not have the records here so, frankly, I would have to take your word for it.

            Mr. TUCKER. I really don't remember. I don't think there was, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. That is all I have.

            Mr. ROBINSON. Are you familiar with a case entitled "Margaret P. Cutler v. Samuel Tucker and Samuel Schrader?"

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            Mr. ROBINSON. Was that a case wherein the lady was suing you and Mr. Schrader for losses by her husband at the Beverly Hills Club?

            Mr. TUCKER. I think so. Is that prior to 6 years ago?

            Mr. CARR. I would like to know the date of that, please.

            Mr. ROBINSON. The original complaint indicates that it was filed on July 28, 1949.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let me see that, please.

            Mr. ROBINSON. It is pending on appeal now. This is a verdict of the lower court.

            Mr. TUCKER. I was in that; yes.

            Mr. ROBINSON. In substance, her husband, or she claims that her husband lost some $37,500 in that club?

            Mr. TUCKER. That is right.

            Mr. ROBINSON. In a club known as the Beverly Hills Club?

            Mr. TUCKER. That is what she claims ; yes.

            Mr. ROBINSON. As a result of the suit, judgment was entered in the amount of $15,000.

            Mr. TUCKER. Which is being appealed.

            Mr. ROBINSON. And you are appealing it now ; is that correct?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            Mr. ROBINSON. The original complaint filed in that action alleges you and Mr. Schrader were partners in the Beverly Hills Country

            Mr. TUCKER. That is according to the suit.

            The CHAIRMAN. They did not sue the rest of them?

            Mr. ROBINSON. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who is your attorney in that matter?

            Mr. TUCKER. I think it was Daniel D. Davis.

             The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Guesi also your accountant?

            Mr. TUCKER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Since the time you have been in Florida and since the time you have been out here, he has done your accounting work?

            Mr. TUCKER. What little I have; I don't see any reason to change.

            The CHAIRMAN. He comes out to Las Vegas to make up your returns and the returns of the other people, does he?

            Mr. TUCKER. In Las Vegas we haven't made out a return yet. I don't think.

            The CHAIRMAN. That is all.

            Mr. RICE. I have nothing.

            Mr. ROBINSON. No further questions.

            Mr. VAN BRUNT. No questions.

            The CHAIRMAN. That is all. We will take a short recess at this time.

            (Short recess.)