[From Investigation of Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce: Hearings before the Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, U.S. Senate, 81st Cong., 2nd Sess. and 82nd Congress, 1st Sess., Part 10, US Government Printing Office, Washington DC: 1950., pp. 907-926.]

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ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        907

TESTIMONY OF MORRIS DALITZ, DETROIT, MICH., ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES CARR, ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let the record show that Mr. Charles Carr, attorney at law of Los Angeles, whom the chairman knew back in the Yale Law School some years ago, is representing Mr. Dalitz. (Charles Carr appeared as counsel for the witness.)

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dalitz, when this committee came out to Cleve land to make an investigation, you were not to be found in Cleveland. You do live at Cleveland ; do you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Detroit, Mich.

            The CHAIRMAN. Detroit, Mich.

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. What is your address in Detroit?

            Mr. DALITZ. 400 Park View Drive.

            The CHAIRMAN. Efforts were made to serve a subpena on you at various and different places but without any success. You were aware of that; were you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. I assumed that there was a subpena for me from what I read in the papers.

            The CHAIRMAN. You read about it in the papers ; did you?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. The marshals at Cleveland, Detroit, and other places had a subpena for you but could not locate you.

            Mr. DALITZ. Nobody came to my home with a subpena.

             The CHAIRMAN. Didn't they come to your home inquiring about you ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not to my knowledge, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. You were not there ; you had left.

            Mr. DALITZ. I have been back and forth a few times ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, the newspapers carried it and your picture in the Cleveland papers and the Detroit papers, and all over the Nation, and it was impossible to get in touch with you. We want to know why you deliberately tried to dodge the committee.

            Mr. DALITZ. Did you say my picture?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I think your picture was published.

            Mr. DALITZ. No, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, your name was carried in the papers; you saw that, did you?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, I did.

            The CHAIRMAN. Why didn't you let us know where you were so we could have you come in and testify at Cleveland or Detroit?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, Senator, I, frankly, was just alarmed at the whole thing and all the publicity; I have never had any publicity in the past.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have never had any publicity in the past?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. At any rate, Mr. Dalitz, we filed a resolution and got one passed to authorize the Sergeant at Arms to get all agencies of the Federal Government to try to locate you. You were over at Las Vegas at the Desert Inn ; is that correct?

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            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. I believe the marshal finally served a subpena on you; is that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; I called the marshal.

            The CHAIRMAN. You called the marshal ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. After you had gotten in touch with your attorney and he had gotten in touch with the committee, you mean.

            Mr. DALITZ. That is right; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. In that connection we have a similar situation with a Mr. George S. May, who comes from Chicago, and who has a large public-relations business here and I think also in San Francisco, as well as in Chicago. We have been trying very hard to locate Mr. May. Warrants or subpenas have been sent to Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Chicago, and if Mr. May is available we would like very much to have him testify while we are on the west coast. We would like for him to testify either here or at San Francisco. Unless we do find Mr. May after all of these efforts and after a great deal of publicity has been given him, we will have to take the same procedure with Mr. May as we did with you, Mr. Dalitz.

            Now, Mr. Dalitz, you go by Moe or Morris?

            Mr. DALITZ. Moe Dalitz, Senator, yes; or Morris Dalitz.

            The CHAIRMAN. Haven't you also been known as Moe Davis?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. How do you happen to be known by that name?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, I would think it is mostly the similarity of the names. Dalitz is mistaken for Davis many times, but I have always used my name Dalitz on my automobile license or any documents or any hotel registrations; I have always introduced myself as Dalitz. Davis became sort of a nickname.

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dalitz, while you are here, and in order to shorten the time as much as possible, and to give you a chance to answer if it isn't true, we asked Virgil Peterson of the Chicago Crime Commission, who has made a study of the records and of the activities of people all over the United States, to give us a brief summary of the information that he had gathered about various people, and in your own justice you should be able to answer any parts of it if it isn't true.

            Mr. Robinson, I believe you have the general subject matter of what Mr. Peterson said. Will you read it and let it be put into the record? When Mr. Robinson gets through, Mr. Dalitz, if you want to make any explanation about any part of it, you will be given an opportunity.

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, Senator.

            Mr. ROBINSON (reading) :

            In the 1930's, according to J. Richard "Dixie" Davis, who was the lawyer for the slain gangster "Dutch" Schulz, a national syndicate was operated from New York City by Charles "Lucky" Luciano, Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel, and Meyer Lansky. Dixie Davis who, of course, was in a position to know what he was talking about, stated that Moe Davis became the power in Cleveland, Ohio, and anyone who would question it would have to deal with Lucky and Meyer and Bugsy.

            Moe Davis has been closely associated in gambling enterprises in the Cleveland area for many years with Maurice Kleinman, Lou Rothkopf alias Lou Roddy alias Lou Rhody, Thomas Jefferson McGinty, and others. Rothkopf, Kleinman, and Davis maintained a suite in the Hollenden Hotel, Cleveland, for many years. Members of this group have been in association with some of the biggest racke-

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        09

teers from the east coast to the West. They have maintained contact, for example, with Abner "Longie" Zwillman, of New Jersey, and it is known that Lou Rothkopf was in very close contact with Mickey Cohen and Jack Dragna, notorious west coast gambling racketeers.

            In the late 1930's a series of lawsuits was flied against Maurice Kleinman, Moe Davis, Louis Rothkopf, and Thomas Jefferson McGinty, who were named as operators of gambling joints known as the Thomas Club, the Arrow Club, which subsequently became known as the Pettibone Club.

            In the early 1930's Kleinman, Rothkopf, and Davis were partners in a front for a gambling operation called the Prospect Advertising Co.

            On February 3, 1931, William E. Potter, a Cleveland City councilman, was slain in one of the most sensational crimes ever committed in Cleveland. The most logical suspect insofar as the murder was concerned was one "Pittsburgh" Hymie Martin. Moe Davis and Lou Rothkopf were with "Pittsburgh" Hymie until a few hours before the slaying. Davis was also with Hymie until an hour prior to the arrest of Hymie, who was charged with the murder of Potter. Pittsburgh Hymie was tried for this murder and was convicted. He won a retrial, however, and was acquitted. It was alleged that Potter had been killed because it was feared that he was about to expose some crooked deals.

            The police had traced checks written by a city official to the Prospect Advertising Co., operated by Moe Davis and Morris Kleinman.

            In recent years Davis, Kleinman, and Rothkopf have been connected with the operation of the Mound Club, the Pettibone Club, the Jungle Inn, located near Youngstown, Ohio, the Beverly Hills Club, and the Lookout House near Cincinnati.

            It is known, of course, that Thomas Jefferson McGinity has been an important figure in the operation of the Mound Club. Several years ago it was alleged that Moe Davis was then connected with a gang which was known as the Mayfield Road gang.

            Some of Davis' former associates have included Joe Massei of Detroit, Mich., Abner "Longie" Zwillman, of New York, and certain members of the Capone gang in Chicago.

            The Mayfield gang subsequently fell under the leadership of Alfred P. "Big Owl" Polizzi and Frank Milano.

            In 1945 a large amount of publicity attended the gang murder of Nathan "Nate" Weisenberg, the slot-machine king of Cleveland. Following that murder the syndicate composed of Kleinman, Rothkopf, Davis and others moved out of the Hollenden. At one time Moe Davis was interested in the River Downs race track and the Coney Island dog track located in Cleveland. He was also involved in a dog track at Dayton, Ky., together with Alfred P. Polizzi. The dog-track operation, however, lasted only 13 days before it was closed by the attorney general of Kentucky.

            Moe Davis, also known as Moe Dalitz, is now the treasurer or was as of February 1950, and apparently still is, of the Desert Inn, Las Vegas, Nev., one of the most elaborate gambling establishments in America. Davis has resided at 400 Park View Drive, Detroit, Mich.

            He has a number of legitimate enterprises there, including the Michigan Industrial Laundry Co. in Detroit. The combination of Davis, Kleinman, and Rothropf are also allegedly interested in the Pioneer Linen Supply Co. in Cleveland. This group has also controlled a slot machine and gambling resort at Brady Lake, Ohio, and, as I mentioned before, has owned the Pettibone Club, a gambling place located in Geauga County, Ohio.

            They are interested in a number of other legitimate businesses which I will make available to you. They are listed in this statement that I have here.

            That seems to be the pertinent portion of it.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to make any comment about this, generally, Mr. Dalitz?

            Mr. CARR. As I understand it, Senator Kefauver, I have a right to consult with him as we go along?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes, but we do not want too frequent consultations. Let him answer but if he feels the need of consultation, all right, it will be satisfactory to take off a minute or two for that.

            Mr. CARR. Go ahead, Mr. Dalitz.

            Mr. DALITZ. To start off with this thing about Dixie Davis. I never saw him in my life, and wouldn't know him if he was in this room.

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            I know that he couldn't have known me. I read that article; it was published in one of the magazines.

            The CHAIRMAN. This is testimony before our committee. This is not an article.

            Mr. DALITZ. I read that in a magazine many years ago, many years ago, Senator. Did you say it was 1930-something?

            The CHAIRMAN. It also has information pertaining to February of 1950.

            Mr. RICE. It indicates you went to the Desert Inn in 1950.

            The CHAIRMAN. It is generally about the places that you were in and the associations you have had. Can you make any further statement about that ?

            Mr. DALITZ. My statement on Dixie Davis is a matter of record, is it, Senator?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. They mention names of places I have never heard of. I have never had a suite of rooms in the Hollenden Hotel in connection with Morris Kleinman and Lou Roddy. I have stopped at the Hollenden Hotel at various times, though.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about these various gambling places and enterprises listed in the statement?

            Mr. DALITZ. There are names in there that I never heard of.

            The CHAIRMAN. Which ones? He mentioned the name of Abner "Longie" Zwillman. Do you know him ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you know Lucky Luciano?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know him; no.

            The CHAIRMAN. You do know Thomas Jefferson McGinty and Morris Kleinman and Lou Rothkopf ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. And you know Polizzi?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not too well. I haven't seen him over three or four times in the last 10 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. You knew both Polizzis?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. And you know Tucker?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. And you know Jack Dragna?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir, just by sight.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Mickey Cohen?

            Mr. DALITZ. I never saw him in my life.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you own any businesses in California?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Or have you owned any?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir. Senator, may I add just another thing.

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. That there is a portion of that, that Mr. Robinson read, about this Potter murder in Cleveland. I have never been questioned on that. I have never been talked to about it and I never had any connection with it of any kind. I have never even been questioned about it even as a witness or by influence, or anything else.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let's go ahead with more specific details in connection with that.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        911

            Mr. ROBINSON. The Thomas Club was mentioned in here; do you remember that?

            Mr. DALITZ. The Thomas Club?

            Mr. ROBINSON. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. I have never been connected with it.

            Mr. ROBINSON. How about the Arrow Club?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't remember that.

            Mr. ROBINSON. It subsequently became known as the Petttibone Club.

            Mr. DALITZ. I had no connection with that club for 8 years or more.

            Mr. ROBINSON. But you did have a. connection with that?

            Mr. DALITZ. I stand on my constitutional rights on that.

            The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

            Mr. DALITZ. I refuse to answer that last question. It might tend to incriminate me.

            The CHAIRMAN. What was the question?

            Mr. DALITZ. Prior to 8 years ago whether I was interested in that club.

            The CHAIRMAN. In the Pettibone Club?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Of what do you think it might incriminate you ? If you want to have a consultation with your counsel, go ahead.

            Mr. CARR. I want him to understand that if he feels it will incriminate him he has a right to refuse to answer. I want the record to show, in connection with this question, that I want to object to it being asked on this ground:

            First of all, under the general immunity section. The Senator, of course, is familiar with the court's decision of whether it gives complete immunity or not. I don't think it does. For that reason I want to object to those questions.

            Secondly, I want to object to it on the ground that this committee has no authority over the matter whatsoever. It is not involved in interstate commerce or within any Federal jurisdiction, referring to the last question.

            Now, you can ask him questions and he can make his answers.

            The CHAIRMAN. We note your objections, Mr. Carr.

            Is your income tax under investigation or under examination, Mr. Dalitz?

            Mr. DALITZ. It has been constantly under surveillance ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. At the present time is any charge being made against you?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is any indictment pending?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. None is in the making that you know of, is there ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know that, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. This is something that happened 8 years ago; that s the question that was asked, about 8 years ago. I don't know what connection, what you had done 8 years ago, would have with what you night be prosecuted for now.

            Mr. CARR. Let me say this: If a person is without the State, outside of the State, many States have statutes that during the period, luring the time that you are outside of the State, the statute does not

912      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. I might say for your information, the Hitchcock case provides he has no immunity from testifying here upon the grounds that it might incriminate him of a State offense.

            Mr. CARR. I am familiar with that rule, but that is not the ground he is claiming it on.

            The CHAIRMAN. I do not know what ground he is claiming it on, but you are talking about being outside of the State. All right, let's get on. I will direct you to answer the question as to whether 8 years ago you had any interest in the Pettibone Club.

            Mr. CARR. Can I consult with him?

            The CHAIRMAN. Very well, go ahead and have a consultation.

            Mr. DALITZ. I decline to answer that question.

            The CHAIRMAN. You are directed to answer the question.

            Mr. DALITZ. I stand on my constitutional rights.

            The CHAIRMAN. You refuse to answer as directed by the chairman of the committee?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. You refuse to answer by direction of the chairman ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. I shall ask you a few questions, then.

            First, let's discuss the matter of how you and your group happened to secure a part of the ownership, the principal ownership, of the Desert Inn in Las Vegas. Now, being from Cleveland, did you and Rothkopf and Tucker and Kleinman—who else has an interest in the Desert Inn ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Rothkopf does not have, but McGinty does.

            The CHAIRMAN. Thomas Jefferson McGinty ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Thomas Jefferson McGinty and Kleinman, Tucker, and yourself. How much interest do the four of you have, Mr. Dalitz?

            Mr. DALITZ. Three of us, Mr. Kleinman, Mr. Tucker, and myself have 13 percent each, which would be 39 percent. Mr. McGinty and Mr. Cornelius Jones have approximately 20 percent. That would be 59 percent.

            The CHAIRMAN. So you have a controlling interest, and then I suppose Wilbur Clark has most of the other interest?

            Mr. DALITZ. The greatest part of it.

            The CHAIRMAN. How did it happen that you went in with Wilbur Clark on this deal?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, we met Wilbur; Wilbur started this project.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did he come to Cleveland to see you?

            Mr. DALITZ. On one occasion ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Had you known him before he started the project?

            Mr. DALITZ. Before he started the project; no, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did he seek you out in connection with it?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, he had gone to several people that we knew. He had run into difficulty with his investment and started to shop around for finances. We got word of it and I won't say whether we sought him out or he sought us out but it was, it developed to be a deal.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then what arrangements did you make with Mr. Clark relative to your investment in the Desert Inn?

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        913

            Mr. DALITZ. What arrangements?

            The CHAIRMAN. He had the building partly completed so you put in, I suppose, your group put in some money. How much money did you put to start in with?

            Mr. DALITZ. We made available to the operation somewhere between $1,000,000 and $1,300,000, or something of that sort.

            The CHAIRMAN. Has that been the total amount of the investment?

            Mr. DALITZ. Very close to it, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You took your proportionate interests in the stock; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is correct.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you draw a salary from the Desert Inn ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't as yet, no.

            The CHAIRMAN. As yet?       ell, are you an officer of the corporation?

            Mr. DALITZ. I am an officer of the corporation, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. It is not paying dividends as yet; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You spend a good deal of your time there, you and Mr. Kleinman and Mr. McGinty and Mr. Jones?

            Mr. DALITZ. Mr. Jones is there constantly, and Mr. Tucker and I are the most active in it.

            The CHAIRMAN. You put Mr. Jones there as the representative of the Cleveland group; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. We are there ourselves.

            The CHAIRMAN. But he is there all of the time?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is right; he is there practically all of the time. That is his complete job.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, the next question is, Mr. Dalitz, you and your group, not all of the same group, but a part of the same group, bought a substantial interest in the Detroit Steel. Will you tell us how that transaction came about?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask these questions by way of background and see if this is correct.

            There was first a Reliance Steel, of which Mr. Friedman was president; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then there was the Detroit Steel, of which Mr. Scarge was president. Do you know him?

            Mr. DALITZ. Of him ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. And Mr. Zivian was in the Detroit Steel also, was he not ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. And they wanted to merge the corporation; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. That was their plan ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Zivian wanted to buy out Mr. Friedman's interest ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know the details of their plan; but I think that is right.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then tell us what happened after that.

            Mr. DALITZ. I met Mr. Zivian. I had known him for 3 or 4 years prior to meeting him about this Detroit Steel deal. I was in Cleveland. I was on leave from the Army.

914      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. Was he the president of the Detroit Steel ?

            Mr. DALITZ. At that time I don't know. I think he was, or his presidency might have been effected simultaneously with the merger, but I am not sure. Nevertheless, I met Mr. Zivian and he told me that he had a deal in the making that he felt was a good investment ; that he was having trouble raising enough money to consummate the deal. He asked me if I knew anyone that might be interested.

            I said, "Yes, I do ; myself." He said, "Do you want me to give you the details of the deal ?" I said, "I will tell you what I want you to do. You get all your information together and take it up to Mr. Sam  Haas." Sam Haas is an attorney in Cleveland.

            The CHAIRMAN. He has been out to Las Vegas with you

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. We have tried to subpena Mr. Haas, too. We have been unable to find him.

            Mr. DALITZ. I heard that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did he take it up to Mr. Haas?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes. Mr. Haas checked everything that he thought needed checking, I suppose, and recommended the deal. He took a one-third of the deal for himself, 33 1/3 percent of the 10,000 available shares of stock. Sam Tucker, Morris Kleinman, and Lou Rothkopf and myself took the other two-thirds, evenly divided.

            The CHAIRMAN. You put up how much money, you and your associates?

            Mr. DALITZ. $66,666, I believe.

            The CHAIRMAN. He agreed to sell you the shares for $10 a share; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. Which was the current value; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. The current value was very much in excess of that; was it not?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir; not to my knowledge, not at that time.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, you made something like $230,000 out of the transaction, did yon not?

            Mr. DALITZ. It might have been a little more.

            The CHAIRMAN. How much do you think it was?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't remember; I still have the stock.

            The CHAIRMAN. Didn't you do something about guaranteeing $200,000 in this transaction?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Or the Morris Plan Bank?

            Mr. DALITZ. I didn't have any dealings with the Morris Plan Bank.

            The CHAIRMAN. All you put up was $66,666 ?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is right, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. When that happened, why, he got to be president of the merged corporation ; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of that corporation now?

            Mr. DALITZ. The Detroit Steel Corp.

            The CHAIRMAN. And it brought in the Reliance Steel Corp.?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir ; they are still a separate corporation ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. But it is owned by the Detroit Steel Corp.?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. You are responsible for Mr. Zivian being the head of this merged corporation?

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        915

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You and your group ?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir; he is responsible for it himself.

            The CHAIRMAN. I know that, but he, without your assistance, was not able to buy out the stock of Mr. Friedman, who was the president.

            Mr. DALITZ. I am sure if I had turned him down others would have taken him on.

            The CHAIRMAN. You think so?

            Mr. DALITZ. I think the best proof of that is the profit it made subsequently.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then after that time you had an accountant named Guesi, did you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did he share in the Detroit Steel investment at that time?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not at that time, no ; but I had heard, I think he himself told me that he bought a couple of hundred shares later on after it had gone way up.

            The CHAIRMAN. All of you people, Kleinman, McGinty, Rothkopf, Jones, you all used Sammy Haas as your attorney in Cleveland ; isn't that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. He was never my attorney, Senator. He was a friend. I have never been in business with him. He never represented me for anything because I never needed an attorney.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, you had him look after this matter for you ?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is right, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You all used Mr. Guesi as your accountant?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. He is a former Treasury investigator who went into private practice; isn't that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is correct; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. After that time you and Mr. Zivian got to be great friends; is that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. We were quite friendly before that time, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. And you went on a 2- or 3-week boating trip together?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes ; but not 2 or 3 weeks. He was with me for 5 or 6 days.

            The CHAIRMAN. On your yacht?

            Mr. DALITZ. If you want to call it a yacht; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, it was a pretty big boat, was it not?

            Mr. DALITZ. Pretty fair ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then subsequent to that time you borrowed $60,000 from him and you would pay him back and you would borrow money back and forth?

            Mr. DALITZ. I would be the one borrowing from him and paying him back. He didn't need to borrow from me.

            The CHAIRMAN. He felt a great gratitude to you for being able to buy Friedman's stock and to swing this deal?

            Mr. DALITZ. I think so, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, wasn't he right up against it with a time limit, when he had to raise the money and he didn't know where to get it and you came to his rescue?

916      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. .DALITZ. He didn't tell me that it was that critical ; he really didn't.

            The CHAIRMAN. You found that out afterward, did you?

            Mr. DALITZ. I have just found it out now.

            The CHAIRMAN. You found it out afterward, from him, and that is the reason he was willing to loan you money and to do you favors after that time; isn't that true?

            Mr. DALITZ. I regard him as a very, very good and loyal friend.

            The CHAIRMAN. I think the record shows that he is or he had a good record as an industrial operator.

            Mr. DALITZ. That is right, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, you have this large laundry in the city of Detroit; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of that?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is the Michigan Industrial Laundry Co.

            The CHAIRMAN. When did you get into the Michigan Industrial Laundry ?

            Mr. DALITZ. 14 years ago, or something like that. That is my brother's business and it has always been his.

            The CHAIRMAN. Lou Dalitz?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. You are in it and Morris Maschke is in it?

            Mr. DALITZ. Morris Maschke, Jr.

            The CHAIRMAN. I see that Arthur J. Hass is assistant secretary.

            Mr. DALITZ. That is a different Hass.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is lie a brother of Sammy Haas?

            Mr. DALITZ. One is H-a-a-s and the other one is H-a-s-s.

            The CHAIRMAN. So it is not the same family ; is that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You had a silent agreement with your friend, Sam Tucker, in connection with this laundry, didn't you ?

            Mr. DALITZ. With the Michigan Industrial Laundry ?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, it isn't a silent agreement, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. It is a beneficial agreement? He had a beneficial  interest in part of your interest; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. He has released that. What happened, if you will let me explain, before I went into the Michigan Industrial Laundry, Morris Maschke, Jr., and myself built the Pioneer Laundry Co., in Cleveland, Ohio. Sam Tucker was my partner in that. Sam Tucker had a boy who was coming back from the Air Corps and who he wanted to put into a business for his future. He took that interest with a view toward having something for his son. His son joined us and we had him with us for quite some time.

            In the meantime, then, Morris Maschke, Jr., and I bought into the Michigan Industrial Laundry with my brother. Mr. Tucker's boy suddenly stated that he did not like the laundry business and was quitting. When that happened, Mr. Tucker had no further interest to keep his stock in the laundry. He didn't like it particularly as an investment for himself, so he sold it to the corporation and in doing that—and I mean to the Pioneer Laundry Corp.—and in doing that he also released any claims that he would have in the Michigan Industrial Laundry.

916      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, this business does about three-quarters of a Ilion worth of business a year and you get about $9,600 a year as secretary ; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. I didn't quite get that.

            The CHAIRMAN. I say the laundry does about three-quarters of a Ilion in business per year.

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. And your brother gets $17,500 as a salary and a get $9,600 as a salary.

            Mr. DALITZ. And Maschke got $9,600.

            The CHAIRMAN. What do you do for that $9,600? Are you active that business ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir; I am.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you go down to the office?

            Mr. DALITZ. I am there quite a lot.

            The CHAIRMAN. But you have not been there for a long time, have you?

            Mr. DALITZ. Oh, yes ; not recently.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have not been in Detroit in the last 2 months, have you ?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who carries on your business in your absence?

            Mr. DALITZ. My brother.

            The CHAIRMAN. But you continue to get the salary as secretary?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, what did the Michigan Modern Land Co. have to do with your Industrial Laundry?

            Mr. DALITZ. The Michigan Modern Land Co. was merely a realty company, owning the real estate, the premises and building and machinery. They leased it to the Michigan Industrial Laundry Co., who were an operating company.

            The CHAIRMAN. You and your associates own the Michigan Modern Land. Co.?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. You also have the Colonial Laundry at Cleveland, do you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; that is in Detroit. That is a family laundry.

            The CHAIRMAN. You did have a laundry, an interest in a laundry in Cleveland, did you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. That was the Pioneer Laundry that I mentioned.

            The CHAIRMAN. Don't you own that now ?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; I sold it.

            The CHAIRMAN. When did you sell it?

            Mr. DALITZ. I think the sale was consummated about 10 or 11 months ago, approximately.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who was in on the one in Cleveland?

            Mr. DALITZ. Morris Maschke, Jr., Louis Friedman, and myself, and the corporation bought out my stock.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who is Louis Friedman?

            Mr. DALITZ. He was a minority stockholder who also was an active partner.

            The CHAIRMAN. The Colonial Laundry of Detroit, who are the officers of that? I believe Nathan Dalitz is listed as one of the officers. Is that your brother?

918      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. DALITZ. My uncle.

            The CHAIRMAN. Your uncle, you say?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is he a director?

            Mr. DALITZ He was; I don't think he is any longer. He was originally, Senator. There was also my father, my uncle, his son-in-law and myself.

            The CHAIRMAN. So it is substantially the same people in all of the laundries?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir; not at all.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have one different person in the Industrial Laundry outside of the family. You have Mr. Maschke in the Industrial Laundry. He does not appear in the others.

            Mr. DALITZ. Mr. Maschke has nothing to do with the Colonial Laundry and the Colonial Laundry partners have nothing to do with either the Michigan Laundry or the Pioneer Laundry. They are not interlocked at all.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who are the owners of the Colonial Laundry besides yourself?

            Mr. DALITZ. Al Blumenfeld and myself. His stock is distributed to his wife, her sister, and her brother; that is purely a family deal.

            The CHAIRMAN. But, you own one-half of it, you say ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes; and I own one-half of it.

            The CHAIRMAN. This is not as large an operation as the others, is it ?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is a family laundry. That is not an industrial laundry or a commercial laundry at all.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Dalitz, did you have an interest in the Frolics Club in Miami Beach, Fla.?

            Mr. DALITZ. I stand on my constitutional rights and refuse answer.

            The CHAIRMAN. You refuse to say whether you have any interest in the Frolics Club in Miami?

            Mr. DALITZ. Miami, Fla.?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't really remember.

            Mr. CARR. May I have another consultation, Senator?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. CARR. I will tell you what I advised him so it will be in the record.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have a right to advise your client.

            Mr. CARR. I want it in the record.

            The CHAIRMAN. If you want to make some statement you can do

            Mr. CARR. I think it is important because a while ago you mention the Hitchcock case, which I am familiar with. I think you left the implication that he was claiming his privilege on the ground that was a State offense. I am perfectly willing that my client shall answer any questions which go back more than 6 years because the statute of limitations on Federal income tax prosecutions are 6 years. So for that reason the 8-year suggestion a while ago, if you want ask him that question, and ask him if he had any interest in that prior to 6 years ago, he will answer the question.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Carr, we will ask our questions as I see fit.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        919

            Mr. CARR. And I will have to advise him as I see fit.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have a right to advise him and we have a right to do what we want about it. Do you have any interest in the Frolics Club in Miami, Fla.?

            Mr. DALITZ. Did you say do I now ?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. No, I don't.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago did you have an interest?

            Mr. DALITZ. I might have had ; I don't remember.

            The CHAIRMAN. You say you might have but you don't remember?

            Mr. DALITZ. I knew who the operators were.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who were the operators?

            Mr. DALITZ. At that time I think it was Sam Miller.

            The CHAIRMAN. Sam "Game Boy" Miller?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, that was many years ago. By the way, what year was that?

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, I am asking you when it was.

            Mr. DALITZ. It must have been a long time ago, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let's get at it this way : Did you, more than 6 years ago, have an interest in the Thomas Club ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Sam "Game Boy" Miller also had something to do with the Thomas Club, did he not?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. He was taken from the Thomas Club and that is where he was arrested for some gambling and sentenced; isn't that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. I really don't remember that.

            The CHAIRMAN. That was a gambling institution?

            Mr. DALITZ. It was then ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, you had the Ohio Villa located at Richmond Heights, Ohio, more than 6 years ago, or some interest in it, did you not? It is now known as the Richmond Country Club. You and your associates had an interest in the Ohio Villa, did you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, Senator. I don't know what it is now.

            The CHAIRMAN. It was operated or is now operated by Tony Milano?

            Mr. DALITZ I don't know that.

            The CHAIRMAN. You do know, Mr. Milano, don't you?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir, I don't; I have seen him.

            The CHAIRMAN. He has a home out here and also a home in Cleveland, doesn't he?

            Mr. DALITZ. I didn't know he had a home here. I met him in Cleveland, just casually.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about more than 6 years ago, the Merchants Cafe in Newport, Ky.?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You had no interest in that?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know anything about the Lookout Club in Kentucky? Have you ever heard of it?

920      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. DALITZ. I have heard of it, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago, did you have an interest in the Lookout Club?

            Mr. DALITZ. I am going to refuse to answer that, Senator, and stand on my constitutional rights.

            The CHAIRMAN. I will frame the question by saying more than 6 years ago.

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. That is a large restaurant and casino over at Covington or Newport; is that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is Covington.

            The CHAIRMAN. In these various Kentucky clubs and most of the others, you have had the same partners or usually it is McGinty and Rothkopf and Kleinman and yourself; sometimes you have one of the Polizzis in it; isn't that the usual group that have the ownerships in these places that we have been talking about?

            Mr. CARR. You are talking about more than 6 years ago?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we will talk about more than 6 years ago.

            Mr. DALITZ. Those names are interwoven in different enterprises.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, I am referring to the five or six names that we have talked about. Sometimes one of the persons would be out and sometimes another in, but through all these operations you usually owned them and bought them together; isn't that true? Of course, in the Kentucky clubs you would get some local person to also have an interest.

            Mr. DALITZ. There are some local people there; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. You had a fellow named Brink; isn't he one of the Kentucky people?

            Mr. DALITZ. Mr. Brink is located there.

            The CHAIRMAN. And Mr. Levison is one of them?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Tell us, more than 6 years ago, about your drawing a substantial salary from the Lookout House. Wasn't that about $20,000, some twenty-odd thousand dollars? Wasn't that part of your cut!

            Mr. DALITZ. It might have been a dividend.

            The CHAIRMAN. That was your portion of the dividend?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether the Lookout Club is still operating or not?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know.

            The CHAIRMAN. When did you last hear about it?

            Mr. DALITZ. Hear about it?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. About what?

            The CHAIRMAN. About its operation. When were you last there?

            Mr. DALITZ. I haven't been in Cincinnati for 3 or 4 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. The last time you were there was it operating?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know.

            The CHAIRMAN. 'Then how about the country dub? Is that another place you heard of more than 8 years ago, the Beverly Country Club?

            Mr. DALITZ. I heard of that more than 8 years ago ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Where was that located ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Newport, Ky.   

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        921

            The CHAIRMAN. You had about the same group owning that, about 6 years ago?

            Mr. DALITZ. More than 6 years ago; yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago wasn't the Beverly Country Club and the Lookout House over across the river, two of the swankiest, plush-carpeted clubs in that part of the country

            Mr. DALITZ. They were very beautiful places; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. The last time you heard of them they were still beautiful places and still operating?

            Mr. DALITZ. So I hear; I don't know whether they are operating or not. I haven't been there for 3 or 4 years, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Tell me again, what is the Michigan Modern Land Co.?

            Mr. DALITZ. You asked me that, Senator. That is the land company that owns the Michigan Industrial Laundry.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever own an interest in Freddie's Club in Cleveland, Ohio, at East Ninth and Vincent Streets?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You never had any interest in that whatsoever?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Theatrical Grill on Vincent Avenue in Cleveland?

            Mr. DALITZ. I never had any interest in it, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Or the Liberty Co. in Cleveland?

            Mr. DALITZ. I think I had an interest in that 10 years ago or 15 years ago.

            The CHAIRMAN. And you were also in the Buckeye Catering Co.?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't remember that.

            The CHAIRMAN. A slot-machine industry.

            Mr. DALITZ. I was never in that; no, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have had an investment with Al Polizzi in the Buckeye Catering Co.; isn't that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't remember that.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't remember it even more than 6 years ago.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who was it in the Buckeye Catering Co. that got knocked off ? Was that Weinstein? Do you remember that ? Was that a company that you had an interest in ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't remember that company. I was never interested in it and don't know that man. I believe Weisenberg is the name he read in the report. I didn't know him.

            The CHAIRMAN. What business did you have with "Big Owl" Polizzi ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not any, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. His cousin was in some of these clubs, wasn't he?

            Mr. DALITZ. His cousin was in the Beverly Club, I believe.

            The CHAIRMAN. Didn't Al have a part of his cousin's interest?

            Mr. DALITZ. I wouldn't know about that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do yon know Joe Massei in Detroit?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir; I know him.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever have an interest in any business with Joe Massei ?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

922      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know where he is now ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Florida, I imagine.

            The CHAIRMAN. "Lefty" Clark and William Bischoff, do you know them?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, I think that is the same person ; I know who he is.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever have any business with him?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; never.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Lou Bach Distributing Co., do you know about that?

            Mr. DALITZ. I think that was the company that Mr. Polizzi had.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you have an interest in that company at one time?

            Mr. DALITZ. Never.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Pioneer Linen Supply Co.?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes; I built that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who were your partners in it?

            Mr. DALITZ. Morris Maschke, Jr., and Lou Friedman.

            The CHAIRMAN. He is the same fellow in this business that was in business with you in Detroit?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not any more, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. But he was in it with you?

            Mr. DALITZ. I sold out of the Pioneer; lie owns it himself now.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you have an interest in the Yellow and the Zone Cab Co.'s in Cleveland?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You did not have an interest in the Yellow Cab Co.?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. You and Mr. Mickey McBride are pretty good friends, are you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You do not know him at all?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir ; I know him, but we are not good friends.

            The CHAIRMAN. Have you had any business with him?

            Mr. DALITZ. No. I just know him casually.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago did you have any interest in the Mound Club near Cleveland?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You never had any interest in that?

            Mr. DALITZ. Never.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you loan them a bank roll at one time?

            Mr. DALITZ. I did not.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Pettibone Club?

            Mr. DALITZ. More than 6 years ago, Senator?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

            Mr. DALITZ. I might have, but I am not sure. That same club, Senator, had another name.

            The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about the Pettibone Club.

            Mr. DALITZ Well, I think it had a different name

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, you know the location and you know the club we are talking about. You did at one time have an interest in that club?

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE, COMMERCE       923

            Mr. DALITZ. Before 6 years ago, yes ; more than 6 years ago.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who were your partners in that?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, there was Sam Tucker.

            The CHAIRMAN. And Morris Kleinman ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Morris Kleinman and Lou Rothkopf.

            The CHAIRMAN. And McGinty ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I think so.

            The CHAIRMAN N. Now, Mr. Dalitz, more than 6 years ago you fellows got your start by rum running, didn't you, back in the old prohibition days? Now, I am not going to go into any details, but Polizzi has told us about it, and others have told us about it. Now, is that the way you got your original money to make your original investments?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, not all of these investments; no.

            The CHAIRMAN. I understand not all of them because some of them are very profitable. As a matter of fact, you have been making a great deal of money in recent years, so I suppose from your profits from one investment you would then go ahead and make another investment. Now, to get your investments started off you did get yourself a pretty good little nest egg out of ruin running, didn't you?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, I didn't inherit any money, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. In order to buy an interest in a good many of these companies you had to have money from somewhere; that is true, is it not?          

            Mr. DALITZ. Senator, I went into the laundry business a long time after all of that. I was in the laundry business before that and after that. I have been in that business all my life, practically.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, you were indicted on some barge deal in 1934, were you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is news to me.

            The CHAIRMAN. Were you or were you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. Nobody ever said a word about it to me. They must have kept it a secret.

            The CHAIRMAN. You never heard a word about it?

            Mr. DALITZ. No. I never was in Buffalo in my life.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who said anything about Buffalo?

            Mr. DALITZ. I read it; it was in the papers.

            The CHAIRMAN. The question was whether you got your original capital to go into these businesses or some business out of rum running during the times of prohibition; that was the question I started to ask you earlier. Now, I am not speaking of only 6 years ago, but more than that.

            Mr. DALITZ. I made money during that era; yes, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, I have asked you about the Polizzis. There is a report; that you and Polizzi had an interest in a dog track at Dayton, Ky.; is that correct? I see that you only had it for 13 days, that it only ran for 13 days.

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes. I don't know whether he was in that or not.

            The CHAIRMAN. That was in 1942; that was more than 6 years ago.

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know whether he was in that or not.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, Chuck Polizzi was in it, was he not?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes; I think so.

            The CHAIRMAN. I think the testimony showed that Al was in it, but you didn't know he was in it; is that right?

924      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. You were in it all right, were you not?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes; I was in it.

            The CHAIRMAN. And Kleinman, McGinty, and Rothkopf were in it with you?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know if McGinty was in it either. I am not trying to be evasive, Senator, I just don't remember.

            The CHAIRMAN. You think the rest of them were in besides McGinty ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Probably ; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. How come the dog track got closed down, Mr. Dalitz?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, if I remember correctly, there was a question about an option, some kind of a legal technicality that just didn't work out; it just wasn't there and they closed it.

            The CHAIRMAN. You know Sam Schrader, of course?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. He had a part in the operation of some of these clubs over in Kentucky that you owned an interest in more than 6 years ago ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you also bankroll him for the Arrow Club in Cincinnati more than 6 years ago?

            Mr. DALITZ. I think I might have; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Was that a gambling operation?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, it was; it was a roadhouse.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about Sam Nathanson, did you bank roll him ?

            Mr. DALITZ. He was a participant in that deal.

            The CHAIRMAN. He is still a participant in some of your deals?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, only in that one; that is the only business I ever had with Mr. Nathanson.

            The CHAIRMAN. Only in that one?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. How many places have you had an interest in in Florida, Mr. Dalitz, more than 6 years ago?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not any, or even 6 years ago.

            The CHAIRMAN. You did not have an interest at all?

            Mr. DALITZ. Other than with—I don't know the name of it—with Sam Miller.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is that the Thomas Club?

            Mr. DALITZ No.

            The CHAIRMAN. The Frolics Club?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. The Frolics Club?

            Mr. DALITZ, Yes ; that is the only one.

            The CHAIRMAN.   'Yon did not have another one with Sam "Game Boy" Miller?

            Mr. DALITZ. No. In Florida, you said?

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes, in Florida.

            Mr. DALITZ. That was the only one.

            The CHAIRMAN. What is the Milco Sales Co.?

            Mr. DALITZ. The Milco Sales Co. is a company that disposes of the salvage, and materials, resulting from the industrial laundry business

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        925

            The CHAIRMAN. That is owned by you and some of your partners?

            Mr. DALITZ. My brother and myself.

            The CHAIRMAN. You and your brother; is that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is that in Detroit?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is right, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then the Dalitz Realty Co., what is that?

            Mr. DALITZ. The Dalitz Realty Co. is a company that owns land and buildings in Wyandotte, Mich.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have a substantial interest in that, do you?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is that a large company?

            Mr. DALITZ. It is quite a large company, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then the Berdeen Realty Co., how about that?

            Mr. DALITZ. It is the same kind of a company, and it is out in Wyandotte. Out in Wyandotte there is this development, land development, going on. We built a big supermarket and leased it to a mart. These companies are rent-collecting realty companies.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about the Liberty Ice Cream Co., is that a company that you have an interest in?

            Mr. DALITZ. That was a little ice cream company in Cleveland about 5 or 20 years ago. I might have put a couple of thousand dollars into that and got it back, but nothing else.

            The CHAIRMAN. You also have a substantial investment in the Chicago & Rock Island Railroad Co.?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not any more.

            The CHAIRMAN. You sold that interest, did you?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, generally. since you have obtained these investments, how much does your income run a year, if you don't mind telling us, Mr. Dalitz? Tell us just roughly, if you will?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, roughly, I would say $70,000 or $80,000 a year.

            The CHAIRMAN. Or $95,000 a year?

            Mr. DALITZ. It could be $95,000 a year, yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Does the State of Michigan have a community property law?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. It does have?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. The last 3 months that you have been out here, you have been in Las Vegas; is that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. For the last 3 months?

            The CHAIRMAN. Since we started our search for you back in Detroit?

            Mr. DALITZ. Your search started Christmas Day, I believe.

            The CHAIRMAN. Have you been gone since that time?

            Mr. DALITZ. Since Christmas.

            The CHAIRMAN. Where have you been?

            Mr. DALITZ. I have been in Phoenix and I have been touring. I have been back in Detroit a couple of times.

            The CHAIRMAN. What name have you been touring under ?

            Mr. DALITZ. My own.

            The CHAIRMAN. Davis or Dalitz?

            Mr. DALITZ. Dalitz.

926      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. Has Mr. Tucker been with you all that time?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know where Mr. Rothkopf and Mr. Kleinman are?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; I don't.

            The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen them over at the Desert Inn at Las Vegas?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; they haven't been there.

            The CHAIRMAN. They have not, been there at all?

            Mr. DALITZ. No. I don't think Mr. Rothkopf has ever been there

            The CHAIRMAN. You haven't been in contact with him recently?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you have a meeting, all of you, at about the same time, and disappear at the same time, Mr. Dalitz?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. It just happened that way; is that right?

            Mr. DALITZ. I guess so, yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Where did you stay when you were in Phoenix, Mr. Dalitz?

            Mr. DALITZ. At the Nevada Biltmore.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Pete Licavoli from Detroit?

            Mr. DALITZ. I know who he is.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know him?

            Mr. DALITZ. Not very well.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know his brother who has a ranch out in Arizona ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know his brother.

            The CHAIRMAN. Have you been to that ranch?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have heard about it?

            Mr. DALITZ. I read about it, ill the papers.

            The CHAIRMAN. Have you had any business dealings with either the Licavolis?

            Mr. DALITZ. Never in my life.

            The CHAIRMAN. How about De Carlo over from Buffalo and Youngstown?

            Mr. DALITZ. No business with him, no.

            The CHAIRMAN. Now, you have been charged with different things from time to time. Did you have one prohibition conviction?

            Mr. DALITZ. Never.

            The CHAIRMAN. Not one?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have been arrested several times, haven you?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. You have never been arrested?

            Mr. DALITZ. No I don't understand all that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Weren't, you arrested in Cleveland on a prohibition violation charge at one time?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. And didn't you pay a fine?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't remember.

            The CHAIRMAN. You do not remember that ?

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        927

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. You won't say it isn't true?

            Mr. DALITZ. I won't say it isn't true.

            The CHAIRMAN. I will say to you that we do not have all our files here from Cleveland and Washington ; I only have a part of them. I don't have the records so I am not going to accuse you.

            Mr. DALITZ. I am not taking advantage of that, Senator. I have never been arrested in Cleveland in my life, or Detroit, or any place else. Now, this Buffalo matter, I read a list of names that were indicted in Buffalo; nobody ever said a word about it or I never heard a thing about it. The next I read, it was nolle prossed or something like that.

            The CHAIRMAN. That is a court record in Buffalo.

            Mr. DALITZ. But I never heard about it.

            The CHAIRMAN. You mean they indicted you and you just never heard about it or they never served you?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't think I was indicted. I think it was a mistake; I don't think it was me.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then I suggest you better get the record straightened out in Buffalo.

            Mr. DALITZ. That is a fact; I have never been in Buffalo.

            The CHAIRMAN. That is all I have. Any other questions?

            Mr. RICE. Yes. Have you ever been fingerprinted?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir; just in the Army.

            Mr. RICE. When was that?

            Mr. DALITZ. I went into the Army in 1942.

            Mr. RICE. How long did you stay in the Army ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Close to 4 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Frank Costello, from New York?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; I don't. I know who he is if I see him.

            The CHAIRMAN. When you go to Florida, where do you usually stay?

            Mr. DALITZ. I have only vacationed in Florida once in my life and I had an apartment on Sheridan Avenue. I think it was the Allendale Apartments, but I don't remember the address.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Allen Rowan or Alfred Rowan in Florida?    

            Mr. DALITZ. He is at the Desert Inn.

            The CHAIRMAN. Isn't he an associate of yours in Florida?

            Mr. DALITZ. The Desert Inn.

            The CHAIRMAN. He comes from Miami, doesn't he?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; he is from Cleveland, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. What does he do for you at the Desert Inn?

            Mr. DALITZ. He is the comptroller, so to speak; he coordinates various apartments.

            The CHAIRMAN. He is part of the group that you brought out from Cleveland; is that correct?

            Mr. DALITZ. That is right; yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you own a hotel at Huntington, W. Va.?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. More than 6 years ago, how about the Mound Club in Lake County, Ohio?

            Mr. DALITZ. No; not more or less.

926      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. You have never had an interest in it?

            Mr. DALITZ. No, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. How do you get by with these operations, more than 6 years ago, down in Kentucky, especially, Mr. Dalitz? Gambling illegal down there, isn't it, and also in Cincinnati ? How do you get by with that?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, I don't know, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, I would like to know about that; how can you get by with that?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't know if I can answer that intelligently, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Who do you see to get protection ?

            Mr. DALITZ. I don't see anybody;

            The CHAIRMAN. These are great big places where anyone can walk in and operate. Here you fellows are out-of-State fellows with money in these different places. How are you able to do it?

            Mr. DALITZ. I can't answer that, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is Lou Rothkopf also known as Lou Roddy ?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes ; he is known as Lou Rodde.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is it true that you were looked for in connection with the killing of this Councilman Potter back in 1931?

            Mr. DALITZ. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. You read about that in the papers, about Councilman Potter?

            Mr. DALITZ. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Why couldn't they find you back in 1931?

            Mr. DALITZ. They could.

            The CHAIRMAN. You did not know anything about it?

            Mr. DALITZ. No one has ever talked to me about that.

            The CHAIRMAN. You read this article that was written in Collier's by this fellow Davis, who used to represent "Dutch" Schultz? That was back in 1939, that you were the main fellow out there and anybody had to see you, and so forth, who wanted anything done. Did you make any reply to that to set the record straight?

            Mr. DALITZ. No. How would you?

            The CHAIRMAN. Maybe you could have written Collier's a letter.

            Mr. DALITZ. You mean they would retract that?

            The CHAIRMAN. They might print your letter, in any event. You could sue them for libel, if it wasn't true, couldn't you? Well, he wrote that

            Moe Davis became the power in Cleveland and anyone who questioned it would have to deal with Lucky and Meyer and Bugsy.

            Mr. DALITZ. He had been reading dime novels, that fellow.

            The CHAIRMAN. Why didn't you sue him for libel, if what he said wasn't true? You could sue Collier's, couldn't you?

            Mr. DALITZ. Well, maybe we can still do it.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, I am afraid it has been more than 6 years ago. That is all Mr. Dalitz.

            Mr. RICE. No further questions.

            Mr. ROBINSON. I have nothing.

            Mr. VAN BRUNT. No questions.