[From Investigation of Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce: Hearings before the Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, U.S. Senate, 81st Cong., 2nd Sess. and 82nd Congress, 1st Sess., Part 10, US Government Printing Office, Washington DC: 1950., pp. 936-952.]

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936      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in session. Our next witness will be Mr. George Butler. Mr. Butler is a very efficient lieutenant on the Dallas police squad, who has made several investigations of interstate ties and the attempts of persons in one part of the country to take over in other parts of the country. He has been doing some special work for the committee in Dallas, New Orleans, and Tampa, Fla.

            What he will have to say will be introductory to a colloquy between two witnesses of which we have a recording. It will be a recording of two persons, of which we have a recording, and we also have a transcription of it.

            Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

            Mr. BUTLER. I do.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE BUTLER, LIEUTENANT, POLICE DEPARTMENT, DALLAS, TEX.

            Mr. RICE. Mr. Butler, without going into too much detail, we would like to have a history of the gambling set-up down in Dallas with respect to the action and policies of the various mobs for control of the city down there. Can you bring us up to date a little on that?

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, at this time it is closed down pretty tight. Several years ago there was a man named Binion and a group of people that were operating as a gambling syndicate there, in 1946, and then there was a change of administration and Binion left Dallas for Las Vegas, Nev.

            Mr. RICE. What do you mean by a change of administration?

            Mr. BUTLER. They got a new chief of police for one thing and a new district attorney for another thing, and they teamed up to clean up the gambling situation there.

            Mr. RICE. Before you go any further, it might be interesting at this time to know that we have been trying to locate Binion for service without much success. That is right, isn't it, Mr. Butler?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, that is.

            The CHAIRMAN. You were up all one night to try to find him at Las Vegas, weren't you ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Tell us about what happened when Binion first came down to Dallas. Do you know where he came from?

            Mr. BUTLER. No. sir; I don't have any record on him prior to 1924, at which time he was arrested by the Dallas Police Department. You may want at this time to read his criminal record into the record.

            The CHAIRMAN. We can put his FBI record in.

            Mr. RICE. We have a record here of the FBI where he was arrested in Dallas.

            Mr. BUTLER. It is more complete on the second sheet, Mr. Rice.

            Mr. RICE. It starts back in 1927 with burglary. Then there is another arrest in 1929 of the liquor laws and then driving a car while being intoxicated. He was arrested in 1931 for murder. He was arrested in 1932 for possession of a pistol and a sawed-off shotgun. He was arrested in 1933 for vagrancy. Arrested in 1938 for vagrancy.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        937

            I notice that in 1924 he has a tire-theft charge at Dallas. In 1947 he was picked up for questioning. In 1948 he was fingerprinted in the State of Nevada for a State gambling application. In 1950 he was fingerprinted at Las Vegas as a fugitive from Texas. He was born in Texas.

            Now, Binion started up in the rackets down in Dallas and what happened next? What racket was he in?

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, he started as a bootlegger back in the prohibition days and after the prohibition amendment was repealed he got into the gambling business. The first venture he was into was the policy business or the lottery business.

            Mr. RICE. That is similar to the numbers game?

            Mr. BUTLER. It is a numbers game, yes.

            Mr. RICE. Then what happened?

            Mr. BUTLER. There was a little trouble down there ; he had some competition. 

            Mr. RICE. Who was his competition?

            Mr. BUTLER. A man named Ben Friedman.

            Mr. RICE. What happened to him then?

            Mr. BUTLER. Binion and Friedman got into an argument. Then, Binion and a man named Buddy Malone were charged with investigation of murder in connection with Friedman's death. Friedman, was sitting in a car at the time and they got out of their car and walked up and a killing took place.

            Mr. RICE. Did there come a time when a fellow by the name of Herbert Noble got into the picture?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. When was that?

            Mr. BUTLER. About 1945 there developed some friction between. Noble and Binion.

            Mr. RICE. What business was Noble in?

            Mr. BUTLER. He was a competitive gambler.

            Mr. RICE. So you had a situation of two competing outfits?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. Noble on the one hand and Binion on the other?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. What happened then ?

            Mr. BUTLER. They began a series of shootings which to this time has been widely publicized all over the country. I think Noble has been shot at a total of nine different times in the last 5 years.

            Mr. RICE. You say Noble has been what ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Noble has been shot and shot at at least nine times in the last 5 years.

            Mr. RICE. Shot and shot at in the last 5 years?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. Does he have a nickname as a result of all that shooting?'

            Mr. BUTLER. He is called "The Cat" because he is supposed to have nine lives. He is also called the "Clay Pigeon" because he has been shot at so much.

            Mr. RICE. As a police officer, what is your theory on those shootings? What is that all about ?

            BUTLER. Noble recently made a public statement, which was printed in the papers, that this trouble developed back in the days

938      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

when the town was open. He stated that at that time, when Binion had control, that he was paying Binion 25 percent and that Binion came to him and wanted to up the take to 40 percent, at which time he fell out with Binion and decided to go on his own.

            Mr. RICE. They were together for a while and then Binion attempted to up the take and they had a falling out about that; is that correct?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Then what happened ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Due to this falling out a series of shootings started which I have told you about.

            Mr. RICE. Were there any shootings back the other way ? Was Binion shot at any ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Not that I have heard of; no sir.

            Mr. RICE. Did there come a time when Binion left Texas?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, he left Texas about 1946.

            Mr. RICE. And where did he go ?

            Mr. BUTLER. He went to Las Vegas, Nev.

            Mr. RICE. What did he do out there ?

            Mr. BUTLER. He opened up a gambling place.

            Mr. RICE. Did he get in touch with Wilbur Clark out there?

            Mr. BUTLER. I understand since that time he has. Recently he has been in touch with him considerably.

            Mr. RICE. What business did he have with Wilbur Clark?

            Mr. BUTLER. I understand that Clark has invited Binion to assume a piece of the Desert Inn.

            Mr. RICE. Clark invited him to take a piece of it?

            Mr. BUTLER. That is my understanding of it, yes.

            Mr. RICE. Was there a Cadillac deal involved there?

            Mr. BUTLER. I understand Binion, through connections lie had in Phoenix, has bought two Cadillacs for his friends in Las Vegas, one of which is Wilbur Clark.

            The CHAIRMAN. Unless you know that yourself let's not go into too much detail. If you have reliable information, then that is another matter.

            Mr. BUTLER. It is reliable, sir.

            Mr. RICE. Did there come a time when Binion left Nevada and came over to California?

            Mr. BUTLER. We received information from a confidential source that shortly after Binion had gotten into the State of Nevada and into Las Vegas, he had some trouble with the authorities over there, and his license was revoked. At that time he was reported to have contacted Mickey Cohen in Los Angeles and made or attempted to make arrangements to open up a policy game in this area. His plans fell through. Our information was that Cohen took Binion's money and told him to get out of town.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let's be sure that we have reliable information about what we are saying. Was that reliable information that you had ?

            Mr. BUTLER. The matter was straightened out, and to the best of my knowledge, the only further tie-in between Binion and Cohen was through the tracing of numerous telephone calls from Mickey Cohen's house to Binion's place in Las Vegas.

            Mr. RICE. Binion meanwhile retained an interest in the rackets down in Dallas, did he not?

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        939

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. And was that a lucrative proposition down there?

            Mr. BUTLER. I understand that it was, sir; a million-dollar-a-year racket.

            Mr. RICE. Do you have any checks with you that are indicative of that ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Tell us something about the checks.

            Mr. BUTLER. These checks are numerous in number and are for different amounts. Here is one for April 9, 1948 for $2,000.

            Mr. RICE. Who is the check drawn to and where is it from?

            Mr. BUTLER. It is drawn by Harry Urban to Bennie Binion.

            Mr. RICE. Who is Harry Urban?

            Mr. BUTLER. He is Binion's partner in Dallas, Tex.

            Mr. RICE. Was he just convicted?

            Mr. BUTLER. He was just convicted and received a 4-year sentence for violation of the gambling laws there.

            Mr. RICE. What is the place of that check, on what bank?

            Mr. BUTLER. At Dallas, Tex.

            Mr. RICE. And where did Binion deposit the money?

            Mr. BUTLER. This check was cashed in Las Vegas, Nev.

            Mr. RICE. So the money was coming from Texas into Nevada?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. What are some of the other checks ?

            Mr. BUTLER. December 20, 1948, a. check from Harry Urban to Bennie Binion for $10,000, dated at Dallas, Tex., and is endorsed by Bennie Binion and cashed at the Golden Nugget at Las Vegas, Nev. On December 30, 1948, a check made out to cash signed by Harry Urban and drawn in the Hillcrest State Bank of Dallas, Tex., and endorsed by Bennie Binion and cashed on January 24, 1949, at the Bank of Nevada, at Las Vegas.

            Mr. RICE. What was the amount of that check?

            Mr. BUTLER. $10,000.

            Mr. RICE. Now, generally, what is the total of those checks to Binion, say, in a matter of a month or a matter of a year or 6 months?

            Mr. BUTLER. They run into a considerable total. I have never added them up.

            Mr. RICE. Into many thousands of dollars?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, several thousands of dollars.

            Mr. RICE. In connection with those disbursements from Urban to Binion and Urban were together on the deal, I take it?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. Was an examination made of the books and records of that gambling outfit?

            Mr. BUTLER. These same checks were used in the trial of Harry Urban in Dallas, Tex., at which time the partnership between Urban and Binion was established.

            Mr. RICE. Was it indicated in the accounts that, the checks were accounted for, these disbursements?

            Mr. BUTLER. I can't state that to my own knowledge, no sir. It was my understanding that they were.

            Mr. RICE. That they were not accounted for?

            Mr. BUTLER. That they were accounted for.

940  ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. RICE. And that the books did show disbursements?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Is it true that the operation showed a loss?

            Mr. BUTLER. I have a copy of the income tax reports made by the partnership in 1948.

            Mr. RICE. Does that indicate a loss?

            Mr. BUTLER. Either it did in either 1948 or 1949. If I can have a minute I will be more specific.

            The CHAIRMAN. Is that something you got from them?

            Mr. BUTLER. This was introduced at the trial, yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, that can be a part of our record.

            Mr. RICE. Then there was a net loss despite these various tremendous disbursements to Binion ; is that right?

            Mr. BUTLER. That was for one of the partnerships, Mr. Rice. Here is another one that I have that should go into the record.

            The CHAIRMAN. That will also be made a part of our record.

            Mr. RICE. Tell us about the deal when Shimley went down to Dallas from Las Vegas for the outfit.

            Mr. BUTLER. About March 9, 1950, I received information that a man named Hal Shimley had been sent to Dallas, Tex., by Dave Berman, who operated the Flamingo Hotel in Las Vegas. Now, because of the Nation-wide publicity that was developing because of this situation in Texas it was becoming of some concern to others. It was our understanding that they wanted to quiet this matter down and Berman insisted on these people getting their business straightened out.

            Mr. RICE. Now, there was some dynamiting that took place ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Do you have photographs of that dynamiting of Mrs. Noble's car ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we have a recess until 6 o'clock, and then we will endeavor to finish up by 6 : 30 or a quarter to 7.

            (Short recess.)

            The CHAIRMAN. We will be in session. Will you please be seated, Mr. Butler, and we will continue.

            Mr. RICE. We were talking about the dynamiting and the murder of Mrs. Noble. What was the story on that, Mr. Butler?

            Mr. BUTLER. In November of 1949 Mrs. Noble stepped into her husband's car to start it, and it blew up and killed her instantly.

            Mr. RICE. You mean she got into his car?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Was that an accident that she got into it? Was he the one that generally drove that car?

            Mr. BUTLER. She had a Cadillac and he had a Ford. The day of the murder Herbert Noble was on his way to Fort Worth, Tex., with a group of bankers to buy an airport over there, and his wife used his car. It very seldom happened that way; that is what developed from the investigation.

            Mr. RICE. She stepped on the starter, and that is what happened; the car blew up?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.            .

            The CHAIRMAN. This is a picture of the demolished car?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        941

            Mr. RICE. And what is this a photograph of?

            Mr. BUTLER. That is part of the car found about two blocks away from the scene of the explosion.

            Mr. RICE. That is part of the metal from the car?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. Then there came a time when Shimley came down to Texas. Tell us about that.

            Mr. BUTLER. We received information that this man was in town attempting to contact Noble.

            Mr. RICE. And he came from where?

            Mr. BUTLER. From Las Vegas.

            Mr. RICE. Shimley came down from Las Vegas?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. Who was he?

            Mr. BUTLER. He was a man that had been staying with Binion in Las Vegas, as far as we could ascertain.

            Mr. RICE. He was an associate of Binion's in Las Vegas and came down to Dallas on a mission, and you got information that he was coming down?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. What did you do?

            Mr. BUTLER. Through a system we had we found out where the meeting was going to be held and set up a microphone and recorded it all.

            Mr. RICE. Where was the meeting to be held ?

            Mr. BUTLER. In a tourist camp in Dallas, Tex.

            Mr. RICE. Who was to meet ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Herbert Noble was to meet and talk with Hal Shimley.

            Mr. RICE. What was the purpose of that meeting?

            Mr. BUTLER. It developed the purpose of the meeting was to make their peace with each other; that is, Binion and Noble, so they could open the town up and everybody make a lot of money. In other words, Noble and Binion were having this feud down there for control of the town and Noble was being shot at and his car was blown up. Binion was afraid to go down there, so that this was the nature, or in the nature of an attempt at negotiations for peace.

            Mr. RICE. An attempt at negotiations for peace; is that the idea?

            Mr. BUTLER. That is right; yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. As a consequence of that, Shimley's trip down there, did Noble get together with Shimley as a result of that trip?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. And they met out at this tourist cabin?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. When did they go to that place?

            Mr. BUTLER. On March 10, 1950.

            Mr. RICE. As late as March 10, 1950 ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. You say that you installed a microphone there and recorded the conversation?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Do you have the records of the conversation which took place at that time?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

942      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. RICE. Do you have those with you?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. For the record, I might state that the staff has listened to the records that Mr. Butler has produced and found that they contained considerable profanity, and for that reason are not suitable for playing publicly. I imagine if you want to have an executive session, Senator, perhaps they can be played. Do you have a recorder and a playback unit?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Possibly they can be made available. In any event, you have a written transcript, which is an accurate reproduction of the records; is that correct?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Do you have a copy of that with you?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. Senator, we have a copy of that transcription here.

            The CHAIRMAN. Before you read the transcript, you have the records and the actual records that were made. You and Mr. Robinson have heard them all ; is that correct?

            Mr. RICE. Yes.

            The CHAIRMAN. Let's summarize this thing and just get to the important parts. As I understand, Binion had been doing business in Dallas and throughout that section of the country; is that correct?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. And also Noble had been doing business in that section ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. They had been warring and fighting one another for control of the gambling of the city ; is that correct?

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, the city was actually closed down when Binion left town. The trouble had developed between these men and had continued after Binion went to Las Vegas.

            The CHAIRMAN. Binion was over here on occasion ; is that right?

            Mr. BUTLER. To the best of our knowledge; yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. So then Mrs. Noble's car was dynamited and Mrs. Noble was killed?

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, her husband's car was dynamited. She got into her husband's car, which was very unusual.

            The CHAIRMAN. The dynamite was in his car but she started to use his car?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. That is the way she got killed?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Shortly after that did Shimley come down to make peace between Binion and Noble? Is that the situation?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. That is where you found out what they were doing and got a recording of that; is that correct?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. All right, you can read that transcript into the record.

            Mr. ROBINSON. As part of the background, Senator, I think it should be made a part of the record, a communication addressed to the com-

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        943

mittee by Will R. Wilson, Jr., district attorney of Dallas County, Dallas, Texas, relating to Binion. [Reading:]

            He is under indictment in cause No. 74005 in Dallas County for the operation of a numbers or policy racket here. He is the principal partner in a policy game here which in the past did in excess of $1,000,000 a year. We have tried to extradite Binion from Nevada, but his extradition was denied by the Nevada courts. We have reason to believe that he is continuing his interest in organized gambling in Texas under the protection accorded him by the Nevada courts against extradition. It is my belief he was guilty of income tax evasion for which he is currently under investigation by various Federal departments, Including the Department of Justice and the Internal Revenue Department.

            Mr. RICE. It has been suggested that in order to make the transcript more intelligible, if one of the staff members, Mr. Robinson particularly, would take the part of Noble or Shimley and Mr. Butler take the part of the other one it would make for a more intelligible reading of the transcript.

            We will put on a little play here and see if we can find out what this deal was all about.

            Mr. BUTLER. If I should stutter and stammer here it is because I want to overlook some of this profanity that crept into this thing anyway.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, I don't know whether the characters look like the ones that we have here or not.

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, they called each other what they were, in the transcript, Senator.

            The CHAIRMAN. Are you going to be Mr. Shimley ?

            Mr. ROBINSON. No.

            The CHAIRMAN. What did Mr. Shimley look like ? Was he a big overgrown fellow ?

            Mr. BUTLER. A very large man.

            Mr. ROBINSON. That is me, then.

            The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Robinson, you will be Shimley.

            Mr. BUTLER. This starts off, Senator, with Herbert Noble making the remark : "Just a minute."

            The CHAIRMAN. All right, you take the part of Herbert Noble. (Whereupon the following transcription was read into the record with H. G. Robinson reading the portions designated for Hal Shimley and George Butler reading the part for Herbert Noble.)

RECORD NO. 1

            HN. Just a minute.

            HS. Hello, boy.

            HN. He wanted me to come to the door. [Laughter.]

            HS. Yeh, you come on in. * * * [Herbert's voice indistinct.]

            Just come on in. Just come on in, * * *.

            Well, listen here, boy. I want to tell you something.

            HN. Phil, you can go on in, if you want to.

            HS. No, no. I want him to stay here. Just let him stay.

            PS. I'll be outside. I'll be outside.

            HS. --- it, we ain't got nothing to hide from him, 'cause he's got to help us, Herbert.

            HN. He ain't got nothing to do with my business.

            HS. I know he ain't got nothing to do with it. Neither have I got anything to do with it, but--

            HN. O. K., but * * *. [Indistinct.]

            HS. You understand?

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. I tell you that, --- , I've found out that the goods ironclad. Now, the whole damn thing can be straightened out, and can be straightened out, and

944      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE.      

know what I'm talking about. And it can be straightened out with this man's help. And I'm not weak.

            HN. Whose—whose help?

            HS. This man, right here.

            HN. You see, I don't want him in my business.

            HS. Well, in this case can't the man act as a friend? -- Herbert --

            HN. No. That—what will happen --

            Well, O. K. Then you just tell him

            HS. Well, now, the thing about it. You—you know Phillip wouldn't lie to you, don't you?

            HN. Yeh, that's right.

            HS. You believe that.

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. ---- the luck. I wouldn't harm a hair on your head man. I'm your friend. You don't know what I've done. I never have put you in any spot, have I, or did anything but talk to you like a friend would talk to a friend, have I?

            HN. Well, now, what part--

            HS. Now, I went out there to this spot.

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. I've been all over the country. Every _______ place out there, just like I told you. Now, I've made up with some people out there that own the big Flamingo Hotel—this eastern outfit that owns that joint. Your name and his name is the talk of the _______ country. The man swears by the all God, and hopes that his five kids will all die, if he knows one _______ thing about the whole _______ proposition from start to finish. Now, I'm just going to tell you what the _______ facts are. They know where that Bowers bought the          _______ dynamite. They know the whole _______ thing, and the ______ himself claims he spent $10,000 on the investigation, and has it ironclad, and he hasn't had a thing, and swears and hopes his children will die if he's ever had one thing ever done to you in any way, shape, or form.

            HN. Now, I--

            HS. I don't know, you understand, I'm merely telling you what I know and what I've been told.

            HN. Well, now--

            HS. So now Dave Berman tells me-

            HN. Who? Who?

            HS. Dave Berman. Owns the Flamingo Hotel. You understand?

            HN. I—I know him. I--

            HS. Now, Dave Berman—said to me--

            HN. Just take it slow, now.

            HS. He says, "Shimley," he says, "Do you know this fellow in Texas?" I says, "I've known the man 20 years."

            HN. That's right.

            HS. I says I don't know a _______ bad thing about him. I says that I don't know what in hell this thing is all about, Dave. He says, "We don't believe out here this man is our friend. The man's got the sheriff, the police, the judges—he's got everything in the State—through that outfit that owns everything there.' And I says, "Well, I want to tell you something, Dave. I don't know what the proposition is about." He says, "We've got people investigating it now, finding out through our sources of investigation, and--

            HN. Wait, wait—just a minute ______.  Excuse me, Phil—I'm crazy. Sit down.

            PS. Oh, I don't care about sitting down.

            HN. No, no. Go ahead.

            HS. So, he--

[End of record No. 1.]

RECORD NO. 2

            HS. He says to me, "Do you know this man?" And I said, "I've known the man for 20 years."

            HN. Who's he talking about?

            HS. Talking about you.

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. And he says, "Well, why in the hell don't you get together and straighten this thing up?" And I said, "How in hell can I straighten it up?" "Do you

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        945

know anybody that's connected with it?" And I said, "Yeh, I know a Jew boy down there that's his friend, that I've known for 15 years, too." He says, `What's his name?" And I told him—who his name was—Phillip Stein. Well, he knows about [indistinct] and Jerry and them in the oil business, because he's got some oil leases with old Max Cohn, and things in Oklahoma. So, he knows all about you, you understand. Now, how he knows about Phillips, I don't know. So I tell him, so he says, "Well, why in the hell don't you straighten this thing up and get to the bottom of it?" He says, "____ it, and get that ____ all stopped and kill those three _______ down there in Texas." Not talking about you, talking about some other people, understand, connected with this Bowers, now I'm telling you.

            HN. Who? Who are they? Tell me.

            HS. I don't know who they are.

            HN. Oh, you do know.

            HS. No, I don't. I don't know who they are, but I will know they are, and I think he (Stein) can help me to find out.

            PS. I don't want to be in on that.

            HN. No, no. He's

            HS. And the name--

            HN. No. Well, now, here

            HS. Here, let me show you something.

            HN. O. K.

            HS. Now, here's what this man says—now after Dave gets him, and I talked to him. I said, "Yeh."

            HN. What man? Who—who?

            HS. Dave Berman, is the man that brought me in to Bennie. Don't you understand? Cause I done talked to him. He offered--

            HN. But Dave's a big man out there.

            HS. He's a big man out there. He owns the Flamingo Hotel.

            HN. I've known him through some friends of mine.

            HS. Now, now—on top of this, when we get to talking about it, he sits down at the table, me, him, and Dave, and two other people. He says, "I hope my five children will die this minute," and holds his hand up like this, "if I know one thing on earth about it."

            HN. Who—who said that?

            HS. Oh, Bennie said that, himself. "Now," he said, "I'm going to get to the bottom of it—this whole _______ thing, and I've got people working on it now."  Now, when I left there, I told him that I was coming to see Phillip, not you. Understand what I mean? So that was my mission here, was to try to get you two to talk together over the telephone—and let me and Phillip go out there and Phillip straighten the whole _______ thing out. And he's got to get in the middle of it, because he's your friend, and he can't do any more, and I don't do it by myself.

            PS. No, Herbert.

            HN. No, thank you. Well, even—even after that, the _______ town is in such a mess, how in the hell you going to---

            HS. Well, you and him know how to straighten it out.

            HN. I don't know

            HS. Well, by God, he said you could. I'm telling you what the man said. Would you talk to the man over the phone?

            HN. Yes.

            HS. All right.

            HN. Yeh, get him on the _______ phone right now. I'll talk to him.

            HS. I'm going to tell you something. I done stuck my neck clear up to here. You understand.

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. Give me long distance, please. Yes, I want 3669W, Las Vegas, Nev.. Nevada, that's right.

(End of record No. 2.]

RECORD NO. 3

            Whispering [indistinct].

            HS. Now, listen, Phillip, you are the only man that can help me with this proposition.

            HN. Now, if you ever   _______ tell what name I'm using--

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE.       946

            HS. Say, listen, don't you worry about me  _______ man. Are you afraid of me, Herbert?

            HN. No, I'm not. If I was, I wouldn't even be talking to you.

            HS. Listen, let me tell you something. You know what I've done. Now, I'm just telling you, I don't give a ____      . I've spent $6,500 on this.

            HN. ____ I still—if—unless he can do something with somebody here—how in the hell—but even at that, I don't see how--

            HS. By gosh, he can stop it.

            HN. That man out yonder?

            HS. You ain't kiddin'. He'll stop it, or we'll kill all three of them—one or the other. And you want have to have nothing to do with it, either. You know; that man—I mean loves them kids just like you do your daughter.

            HN. That's right, that's right.

            HS. He stood like this, Phillip, and he says, "I hope God will kill all five of them, now, if I know one thing about it, at all." He didn't only convince me, he convinced the biggest mob in the United States. If he wanted to get some thing done, he wouldn't have nobody do it like that. I'll tell you that.

            HN. I know he and Mickey are just like that.

            HS. One of the biggest outfits in the United States.

            HN. That's right, that's right. O. K. I know he—he's got a connection that won't quit. Hell, now, I'm not calling him.

            HS. I'm calling him.

            HN. You're calling him.

            HS. You're _______ right.

            HN. Hell, say, I get--

            HS. Hello, Mrs. Binion? Is Mr. Binion there? This is Shimley, hello, this is Harold Shimley, Harold Shimley. Yes, I'd like to talk to him, please, if you can get him on the phone. Hello, Bennie, this is Shimley. Well, I'm in Dallas and I have done what I told you I thought I could do. And I think this whole thing can be straightened out 100 percent. And, of course, I know what I've been told, and you know the whole score from start to finish. I know you wouldn't have spent $10,000 if you hadn't have known. I don't get that from you. I get it from the other people. And this is my friend, just like you are. Now, wait a minute. I want you to talk to somebody a minute.

[End of record No. 3.]

RECORD NO. 4

            HN. Ask him what he wants to tell me.

            HS. Well, come on and talk to him. ____ it. Man's 1,500 miles away. Just talk to the ______.      

            HN. Hello, Bennie, this is Herbert. All right, how are you? Oh, I've got a little cold. Yeh, yeh. We are way out in the country, partly, anyway. We are out in the country, partly, anyway. Oh, I'm all right, perfect. Yell. Well, what about Shimley here? Yeh, yeh. Well, I just wondered—I just wondered—I didn't know what—what the score was. Yeh, wait a minute, then I'll let you talk to him. Yeh, yeh. No, never heard of him. Oh, yeh, I know the son of a _____.  Hey, I know him. I—I. He gave me some pretty bad write-ups. Yeh—well, I don't know but they—they done something to my wife here in the paper. I didn't like a damn bit. Yeh. Wait just a minute, then, and I'll let you talk to Shimley.

            HS. Listen, Mr. Binion, I'm here with the only man that—that we can get this whole thing straightened out with—and that's Phillip Stein. Understand? I want you to talk with him a minute. Come here, Phillip.

            PS. Hello—hello, Bennie. O. K. Yeh, well, that's him. I got—I wasn't supposed even to be here, but I am. I—I didn't want to get involved in all of this stuff. Well, I know, but—I mean I'm getting .caught in something when I'm an innocent party. Yeh. Well, they just wanted me to talk with you.

            HS. Let me talk to him.

            PS. Yeh, I know it. Wait a minute, Shimley wants to talk to you.

            HS. Now, do I have, just as you said when I left there, the power to go ahead and try to straighten the whole thing out? Well, do you know me now? Well, did you recognize the other two men? Yeh. Well, now listen—now, uh—this thing has gone far enough, just as Dave and everybody out there says, and let—let's straighten the whole thing out. Yeh. Well, then, me and Phillip might come out there to see you. Well, and in the meantime, uh, do you think that fat man—does he know anything about the thing at all? He doesn't—he doesn't? Oh, he don't even know them. Uh-huh, yeh. Well. I'll tell you what I'll do.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        947

I don't know just how soon I'll seen you, or when I'll call you, but I'll get in touch with you just as soon as possible. And everything will be careful here until we can straighten the whole thing out. Well, every precaution will be taken. Well, no, you won't be responsible, but still them other people—we've got to take care of that. So then, I'll get right on it and me and Phillip will probably see you within the next 2 or 3 days anyhow, maybe tomorrow. All right then, you be good, and we'll see you soon. All right.

            That ______. I'm telling you, boy, there ain't no ____ about it, that Benny, is on the square about this thing.

[End of record No. 4.]

RECORD NO. 5

            HS. And it's the talk of the _______ country, it's the talk of the _______ country, and there ain't no ____ about it. I mean the talk of the country.

            HN. You know

            HS. He said right there over the phone—he said, he said, "Now, be careful until we can get things taken care of." You understand?

            HN. What did he mean by that?

            HS. Well, I guess he means that he don't want nobody to get out in the open, you understand what I mean, and put yourself in a spot, or something else. Just like you remember, when I left the house, now you remember this. I'm not bawling you out or nothing, but you told me you would not go out that door at night, didn't you?

            HN. Yeh.

            ES. Then you turned right around and did it.

            HN. Well ____ it. Hell. I—I—let's don't go back now.

            HS. Now, wait

            HN. No; don't go back now—I am going to tell you that's—on you. When I lost my wife

            (Crossed voices.)

            HS. I know that—I know that.

            HN. And ____ it, I'll tell you one _______ thing          

            HS. And I'll tell you, you are going to know the ______ that done it.

            HN. All right. Who? You know, now.

            HS. And the ______ by God, done it was the man that was trying to get you.

            HN. Yeh. Who—who is he?

            HS. You know who he is as well as I do.

            HN. No, I don't. No, I don't.

            HS. You know that ______ down there that got life in the pen as well as I do.

            HN. Who, Delbert? [Bowers.]

            HS. You ain't--

            HN. He didn't do it by hisself.

            HS. Well, he done it with some of his _______ burglar friends.

            HN. I don't doubt your word. Don't doubt your word a bit, but still--

            HS. I'm telling you, and you're—you are going to find it out for your own satisfaction.

            HN. O. K. That's what I want to do, but I don't want to make no _______  mistakes. But—uh, well, here's the thing about it--    

            HS. You see—but here's the whole story, Herbert, with things like they are, this man swears—now, I don't know one _______ thing, only I don't believe that ______  would hold up his hand and take an oath on them kids any more than you would on your daughter, you understand, and hope they'd die, if he knew anything about it. He didn't talk to me; he talked to other people. There were five people at the table. And the man—it, it hurt him as bad, you ain't never seen nothing like it. So other people tell me, when this happened to that woman and he got the beef for it. Now, I'm telling you, and the ______, I —

            HN. By God, I didn't name him. I didn't name him.

            HS. Well, I know you haven't named him.

            HN. I ain't named a ---.

            HS. That don't make no difference, Herbert. Everybody in the country has said and talked, you understand—the inference, and all. You never have named him--

            HN. I ain't named nobody, and I won't name nobody. I--

            HS. But at the same time—here, let me show you something. If we can get this thing straightened out and settle this thing for them _______. Will you be friends enough with the man that we can all make money and open the town?

948      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE.

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. And take care of yourself—not put yourself liable to any-

            HN. I ain't liable to nobody anyway.

            HS. Well, well, I'm liable. When I stand out in the open and meet Phillip, bow do I know that Phillip is coming to meet me? Because I trusted your friend I wouldn't do nothing to my friend. And you are still my friend.

            HN. I wouldn't harm a flea, but ____ it.

            HS. ____  the luck, but let me tell you something. I don't know, but I do honestly believe this, if that man had of wanted to had anything done to you, he could have had people who don't do a _______ thing but that, understand what I mean? He didn't have to go. A man that has that kind of connections, he wouldn't have to go to some ______ that would be an amateur, the way these _______ has done you, and the way they went—have gone about it.

            HN. I never said it was him.

            HS. I know, but I'm telling you, understand? The man thinks that you think it's him. The man is as crazy as any betsy bug you've ever seen, and I saw tears rolling down the man's eyes, about your daughter.

[End of record No. 5.]

RECORD NO. 6

            HS. Now, I don't know, Phillip, now, that's the truth of it, understand?

            HN. Well, ____ it [stuttering—indistinct]. I'm the one. I ain't got my right

mind half of the time.

            HS. Well, I'm willing to try to handle it any way you think. I've told you the truth.

            HN. O. K. Well, what's the deal?

            HS. I say that I think that the two of you ought to get together and go ahead and straightened, and let these other _______ be taken care of. Understand what I mean?

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. And they will be taken care of from the other end, not from this end. Understand what I am talking about?

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. Course, you ain't going to take care of that one unless you take care of him down there in that joint. [Indistinct.] But he tells me that the ______ can be taken care of down there.

            HN. Probably can, if you have the right kind of connections.

            HS. Well, I don't know about that business, you understand. All I know is what he says. He could get him killed in there if he wanted to.

            HN.  ______, now we are talking business.

            HS. Understand, now, I'm telling you that the whole      thing can be _______ straightened out and the town can be straightened out, every _______ thing, and

be clean yourself.

            HN. All right, then. Where, where? How am I going to know who killed my wife?

            HS. You'll know when the ______ was that was one of them, when they find them out there.

            HN. Who?

            HS. Well, you know.

            HN. Well, now, just start—we are talking plain and we--

            HS. Well, old Delbert Bowers,

            HN. Well, who else did it?

            HS. The _______, they even know where he bought the dynamite. They know where he done the whole _______ thing now.

            HN. Do you know where he bought the dynamite?

            HS. No, I don't know. Never even ask them, but I'll guarantee when I go with this man, by God, both of us will ask him. They know where he bought the

_______ dynamite to do It with. The ______   thought he was killing you. He is the dirty ______ that is behind the whole thing. I don't see how the ______ can sleep at night, for what he done. I'm telling you.

            HN. I know that the night that my wife was laying out there in the morgue.

that ______ was playing cooncan and gambling with the whole _______ bunch.

            HS. Didn't bother him a bit ; did it?

            HN. No. Say, I'm no _______ fool. I know what part of it is, but there's some that want to know. I want to know, and I don't--

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        949.

            HS. See, here's the thing about it, Herbert. I am between the ____ and the sweat. I've done something that Phillip—I ain't telling Phillip. Nobody knows but me and you, understand?

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. And I got mixed up in this thing, and I got mixed up in it a funny way. I spend my own money, understand what I mean. I've took care of other people—people with me now. Took care of them and have taken care of them since that time, and if it don't be for them on friendly terms, with another man from New York, there, one of them, you understand, I wouldn't have never known what I know now. See what I'm talking about? Well, after I found out the whole story, I asked the man, I said, "Listen here, Bennie," I said, "I'll go and talk to that man in Dallas."

[End of record No. 6.]

RECORD NO. 7

            HS. Unless you can talk to him, and you can get together, and you can iron this thing out. He says, "Hell, I ain't never done one thing to the man. He says and, ____ it, everybody in the country is saying that I done it. You haven't said it, but everybody else has said it." Understand?

            HN. All the _______ Houston newspapers said I said it, and I never did. I told them on the _______ phone, I says, "I never have named anybody, and I won't name nobody."

            HS. He said something over the phone about some ______ reporter.

            HN. He asked me, the ______, little old Mac—Mac something, that was bringing Mildred's name at the _______ trial, down there at Delbert's trial.

            HS. Well, he told me that there was a reporter here from Dallas.

            HN. Yeh, and the reporter was telling him what a good guy I was. Well, I don't owe Mac no favors, and I don't want him

            HS. Anti I don't even know him. I never heard of him until just now, when he told me over the phone.

            HN. He asked me, and you heard what I told him.

            HS. I didn't know what you was talking about.

            HN. We was talking about that _______ newspaper reporter. I'll tell there ain't nothing I'd rather do than to get it square. But I'm not showing no    yellowness.

            HS. Oh, now, they ain't nobody even thought about that, Herbert, understand? The idea is that this thing here, don't you think can be taken care of, Phillip?

            PS. I always hoped it could.

            HS. You'll do your part, won't you, and I'll damn sure do mine.

            HN. Well, damn, he's got some agents here. Why ?

            HS. He ain't got nobody here like that man. I'm telling you that the people that's out there. I know what I'm talking about, that with the connections and everything, you understand what I mean? The _______ that's their business, and nothing else. They don't make any mistakes.

            HN. Well, I— I—I'm not saying. I don't know. I'm kinda a little bit in the background, ____ it, a lot of people knows some things that I don't know. But--

            HS. But I told you that I know about, you understand.

            HN. Yeh ; all right.

            HS. And the ______, the man has already told me, he says, "Get all the stuff taken off me, and let it lay where it is," he says, "I'll take care of the whole situation." He says, "I can get the ______ killed in the penitentiary."

            HN. Well, that's good enough for me.

            HS. And when I'm telling you this, I'm not lying to you. The man sat there and there was five people at the table, and tears rolled down the man's cheeks when he talked about your daughter, and talked about the way this thing happened. And when they found out they know exactly where the _______ even bought the _______ dynamite, and everything, in Fort Worth. And I'll find it out for you and tell you.

            HN. That's what I want to know.

            HS. Course, they are never to know that it came from me, understand what I mean?

            HN. Hell, there ain't nobody ever know it, Shimley.

            HS. But I don't want to know it, because here's the thing about it, I don't want to put anybody in the electric chair. I'd rather see a ______ get murdered. I'd rather get killed myself than put a ______ in the electric chair.

950      ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            HN. No need to talk like that. Let's don't talk about it.

            HS. Well, here's the thing about it. I'm to straighten the thing out between you arid this other man, and I know me and Phillip can get the job done.

            HN. I'd rather that you'd just deal around Philip, now, because, — it    

            PS. Don't pull me in. I don't really want it. You all are pulling me in something that I don't even want, and I told you I wasn't even—didn't want to come in here, and you wanted me to.

            HN. Well, well, now, how about this?

            HS. Well, all right, now look here, ______, you're a friend of mine, and you are his friend, so what the hell.

            HN. Well, how about this?

[End of record No. 7.]

RECORD NO. 8

            HN. Town can't open before—looks like Wilson will be reelected, and—         HS. That will be all right. Wilson will be taken care of. I know what I'm talking about.

            HN. O. K. That's—, ____, but--

            HS. And maybe money behind him to elect him, understand?

            HN. Now the _______ deal is not settled.

            HS. Oh, no. It ain't going to be settled until the work is finished, understand. When the work is finished, and you know what the score is, I'm going to let people tell you. Understand what I mean?

            HN. Yeah.

            HS. I'm not going to tell you, Herbert. And I really don't know, I'm just like this man about that. I don't want to know who them three guys are, understand what I mean?

            HN. What three guys?

            HS. The three that's mixed up with this Delbert.

            Was it three of them?

            HS. Oh, yes ; three of the _______ altogether. So I don't--

            HN. The hell there was. One of them to drive the car, one of them to shoot, and the other to do the job, I guess. The _______.

            HS. Every one of them _______ bank burglars, _______ knobknockers,        

            HN. Who were they, Shimley? You know them.

            HS. I really don't know their names. No. And if I knew I'd tell you.

            HN. All right.

            HS. I don't know, I done told you.

            HN. I'd expect you to.

            HS. I don't know, I don't know, you understand. I told you the truth about it, and I wouldn't lie to you, understand, and I'll guarantee that if I can't help you I won't do you any harm. I told you that all the time, from start to finish, and I honestly believe this ______ is telling the truth. I am convinced of it, by God, because he wouldn't lie to them _______ people. They would kill him just like they would me, if they caught the ______ in a lie and a double-crossing

            HN. Well, I'm just as willing to square it as anybody.

            HS. Yeh, but the thing is, you got to know who the other people are, understand?

            HN. Yeh.

            HS. And will you promise me this now? I'm asking you again.

            HN. O. K.

            HS. Will you take care of yourself until you know who they are? Will you do that?

            HN. I will, or I'll get caught trying.

            HS. All right, that's all I ask of you. That's all I'm asking of you and I'm not asking _______ much. Because, by God, I don't ever know where you are.

Wouldn't want to know, no way on earth.

            HN. I'll tell you, and any _______ time you want to get me

            HS. I'll get you through this man. I trust this man.

            HN. I'll be here in Dallas, you can bet your life. I'll be here.

            HS. I'll trust this man, you understand?

            HN. Want everybody to know where I am.

            HS. I trust this man and I know damn well that you trust him.

            HN. That's right.

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE        951

            HS. And I won't ask nobody nothing, even your own brother, or nobody else. I'll do all my stuff through him, and if I want to get in touch with you, I'll get in touch with him.

            HN. My brothers absolutely don't know as much as Phillip, and Philip don't know nothing.

            HS. Well, of course, mine and your business Phillip don't have to know.           

            HN. That's right.

            HS. Understand?

            PS. Well, I just—[ Stein's voice].

            HS. Well, I'll see you, boy. Where's my hat?

            HN. Now, don't let me down.

            HS. Let you down? I've got three kids myself, and I hope every one of them will die this minute if I let you down. You will let yourself down if you do ; it won't be me. Take care of yourself.

            [End of recording.]

            About 7 : 45 p. in. March 10, 1950, Hal Shimley made a long-distance call from D1-3994 Dallas, Tex., to 3669-W, Las Vegas. Nev. The toll tickets on this call tare been picked up by the Dallas Police Department. IA. George Butler and Lt. George Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department supervised the covering of this meeting and each are in position to testify.

            In the above recording transcriptions, the initials "HN" stand for Herbert Noble, Dallas gambler who has had his wife murdered by a dynamite bomb and has been the target for numerous attempts on his own life.

            "HS" represents Harold Shimley, who has an arrest record all over the country. He is a "con man," among other things, and if it had not been for the long-distance phone call to Binion to verify his story, his statements would not have carried too much weight. After this call was made, we realized that in all probability most of his story was true, as he was strictly correct when he stated that "those people out there would kill me like a dog if I lied to or about them." it meant the big mob represented by Dave Berman.

            "PS" is Phillip Stein who is, as he states himself in the recording, very much out of place at a meeting of this character.

            The CHAIRMAN. Anyway, what happened? Were the rackets to get together ? Did it work out ?

            Mr. BUTLER. We put the people involved under surveillance but we never could get them on a plane or find out whether they made any father telephone contacts, or anything.

            Mr. RICE. Now, referring back to the transcript, part of that conversation relates to a fellow named Bowers, and the location of the place where the dynamite was bought. What is that about ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, there was some talk about Delbert Bowers in Dallas having placed the bomb in the car that killed Mrs. Noble. In this conversation Shimley states that Binion has spent $10,000 in attempting to find out who was responsible for that deal.

            Mr. RICE. Binion spent $10,000 trying to find out who killed Noble's wife?

            Mr. BUTLER. That is Shimley's statement, and he made the remark that he could trace the purchase of the dynamite to Fort Worth, Tex.

            Mr. RICE. What were they going to do about it?

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, that is in the transcription.

            Mr. RICE. Tell us, in general, in your own words, about that.

            Mr. BUTLER. He stated that in order to get things evened up, that they would get these responsible parties killed.

            Mr. RICE. They were going to kill them ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes. This fellow Bowers was sent to the penitentiary shout that time and they were going to have him murdered even though he was in the penitentiary.

. Mr. RICE. They were going to go inside of the penitentiary and take of him inside of there?

952.     ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes.

            Mr. RICE. Is that the end of it, Mr. Butler?

            Mr. BUTLER. Well, those are the highlights of it; yes.

            Mr. RICE. Did it come to your attention that Shimley got any reward for acting as an intermediary in these negotiations?

            Mr. BUTLER. I was told by a reliable source--

            The CHAIRMAN. I think we are getting too far along here about second-hand information. You were told by a reliable source about some things but let's don't bring somebody else's name in here unless you absolutely know.

            Mr. BUTLER. Shimley is now operating a wire service in Tulsa, Okla.

            Mr. RICE. You know that he is operating a wire service?

            Mr. BUTLER. That is our latest information.

            Mr. RICE. You have made an investigation officially and have that report?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            Mr. RICE. In connection with your investigation did it come to your attention that Binion and Jack Dragna were friendly?

            Mr. BUTLER. I can't state that to my own information, but I heard that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Then let's strike that out of the record unless you know something about it.

            Mr. RICE. Insofar as you know, Binion is now among the missing ?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. We have been trying to serve a subpena on him for some time ; isn't that correct?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Well, this has been a very interesting recording and there is some information that is very pertinent in here. I think it may be of some use to us. If any of the press want to hear the actual recordings, they are available. Can you set them up, Mr. Butler?

            Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir. This transcription of what we have, the essence of it, I understand, will be made a part of the record.

            The CHAIRMAN. Yes. However, I do think where it refers to other than the parties involved themselves, Binion and Shimley and Noble, that unless you have from an official investigation information that shows these things, it should not be used against or considered as derogatory evidence as to other persons who may be involved. Is there anything else?

            Mr. BUTLER. No, sir. Our information was that Binion had turned to the big group at Las Vegas to keep him from being extradited, but that again is something else that is difficult to prove.

            The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Lieutenant Butler. Do we have any other witnesses to call ?